Milk allergy death- should the book be thrown at the staff involved?

[mids2019]

....or if you are minimum wage staff member working in a stressed environment without English as a first language there should be leniency. Doctors are paid for life and death decisions but are Costa staff?

This is such a tragic case. That poor, poor family. From what I read, the mum had taken care to communicate that her dd had a very severe allergy.

As for whether the staff member should be held accountable, I think I would need to understand what training is in place around allergy awareness and whether they knowingly ignored the procedures that they should have followed etc. Regardless of their individual culpability, Costa as a company clearly didn't do enough to mitigate the risk ...if they cannot absolutely guarantee that their processes will be safe, then they need to make it abundantly clear in all of their shops that they are unable to cater for clients with allergies.

An employee at a cafe, using milk in most of its products, should have the option to say no to making a product for someone who will die if milk gets into the product. If I were the employee I’d need training in allergy management, separate equipment to produce non milk drinks, separate preparation areas and gloves to avoid any contamination. Gluten free restaurants have an accreditation from the Coeliac society for example. Having an allergy means you have to check that places are safe for eating out.

To Ross came as doody, the risk wouldn’t have been there if soya had been used. Costa and many other cafes state they serve plant milk and have allergies books . So they either follow it or state we can’t follow strict conditions for allergies or dietary restrictions. I know it’s all about money but being told u are catered for then not isn’t right. The costa near here keep the plant milk away from the dairy and use a colour coded jug and clean the jet before doing the coffee. The mother asked all the correct questions, it’s not easy saying no to a child especially as soya was on offer.

The milk frother or jet is first through with steam a few times and wiped with a separate cloth .

They were trying to avoid while still leading a normal life. That's why they asked for soya - the mum apparently reiterated it to the point she embarrassed her daughter.

It's about trying to find a balance - it didn't work out in this case tragically, but the knee-jerk shouldn't be to ban those with allergies from eating anywhere other than their own home!! (And then what about the poorly paid food production workers?)

I'm pretty financially challenged too😅but it's really not a comparable sitution at all. As someone dealing with both issues you can take my word on that. It's nowhere close.

I'm very sorry to hear you're allergic to the medication you need. That's very hard.

Most machines have 2 frothers, our second one is for alternative milk only, it is sanitised and vented after each use (which should happen anyway TBF) and a separate, differently coloured jug, also cleaned and sanitised.
This doesn't eliminate the risk of all allergies in all circumstances because the last dairy free person might have had almond milk and the next be allergic to dairy and almonds but the cleaning should reduce the risk.

The issues that arise are usually from wait times to be honest, complaints because the 2nd wand must not be used for cows milk and so service is slower than if it could be - but then that increases the risk of cross contamination if it's used for all milks. Complaints because taking an order from, clarification of the order and making of the drink takes longer than the 'normal' drinks.

You could argue there that there should be one member of staff for allergens and a completely separate machine - increasing the costs and therefore the prices. Are people willing to wait a few moments so safety for allergic customers can be observed properly? Or pay higher prices so they can be served quicker but allergens observed correctly at the same time?

Or will people still moan at waiting a few moments more for the allergic customer to ensure their drink is safe and huff and puff about 'shit service'?

There are differing reports about what was actually said and understood. Some reports are saying the mother only asked for the jug to be washed out because her daughter had an allergy - she didn’t make it clear that they needed soya milk, and some are saying that the employee didn’t understand what was being asked for. If places like this employ staff whose English isn’t good, then it’s only a matter of time before something like this happens again. It’s one thing having the procedures in place, but quite another making sure everyone understands them.

I think you're being purposely obtuse. Your comparison is a fallacy.

Children with and without allergies are driven around by parents and teachers.

The risk of car accidents is not exclusive to a very small group of children in lieu of their genetic make-up. Your comparison with jumping in a car and taking a risk would only stand up if there were a small number of children severely allergic to a specific car component which was present in the great majority of cars. If this kind of car-allergy existed, then yes, I would expect those children's parents to never risk putting them in a shared car which belonged to a massive company where every day they sent out thousands of cars to their expectant children and simply trust that the company had sent the right car. I would make certain that the component was REALLY not in the car before putting my child in it. In fact, if I had a child severely allergic to a common car component, I would very likely only drive them in my own, carefully chosen, allergen-free car.

This is reaching significant levels of absurdity, but it appears it is needed in order to satisfy certain irrelevant similes made in this thread today.

My point is that a low wage doesn't justify not following guidelines that are in place for safety.

Minimum wage earners in factories or supermarkets are not entrusted with life and death decisions on a daily basis. The woman bleeping through your shopping at the checkout or giving you a refund for your T shirt on customer services is never going to be summoned to court on a manslaughter charge and she should never be in that position.

There doesn't seem to be anything like enough confirmed information in public domain to answer OP's question.

And mine is that a person with severe allergies, or in this case the parent/caregiver of a minor with severe allergies, is the main responsible to ensure their children do not access a place where they deal with that specific allergen 1000 times a day, for the sake of her daughter having a chocolate shake that day.

In my opinion, the state taking the mother to court in the name of the dead girl would be more proportionate, and more fair, than the mother taking the Costa employee to court to make herself feel better.

People on factory lines can and have contaminated food, people on check outs can contaminate food purely from handling a previous shoppers goods, or not washing their hands after eating during their break.

Truly some of the responses on this thread get more and more depressing. The lack of understanding and empathy is upsetting.

its not a race to the bottom. One severe allergy isn’t a privilege just because someone else is worse off. Just because you are suffering does not mean we shouldn’t all work towards a safer inclusive environment for children (and adults) with allergies who have much to offer society themselves. Risk cannot be eliminated but it can be mitigated and there are some basic straightforward procedures that can be adopted and do make a difference, it is enforcing a societal and procedural change so that it becomes habitual. Rather than apportioning blame it would be the only decent thing to come out of this horrible event if it could be prevented from happening again to someone else.

Catch yourself on. That is a despicable way to speak about a bereaved mother. Multiple well-informed posters have explained over and over again that it's likely this was the child's first serious reaction.

I don't even think the mother has sued Costa (yet, anyway), has she? The article is discussing an inquest.

I suspect any allergy sufferers would much prefer someone to be honest and say sorry we can't safely prepare that here then have a go anyway.

In this case though Costa does have a set process for people who state they have allergies, I honestly don't believe that a parent whose child has such a severe allergy wouldn't be crystal clear and well versed in what to say when at places like this; untrained/miscommunication by staff seems much more likely. If Costa are not highlighting the importance of these processes and having recurrent training in processes plus employing people who can't communicate effectively with customers due to language barriers etc then I think they have more questions to answer than the employee.

We do mot know for sure that this was indeed the childs first serious reaction. In fact the more I think and read the details the more I think the parent at the least knew the allergy could be serious maybe not full anaphylaxis of course but serious to some degree.

She announced the allergy to the Barista

She requested the jug be actually washed

The daughter appears to have immediately attempted to wash away the allergen from her mouth in the dentists.

Emergency antihistamine was sought.

I take it that like myself antihistamine can sometimes top the swelling and breathing problems but that is still very risky. Sometimes it doesn't work even if you double or treble up.

All the details have not emerged. But it all doesn't quite add up.

I think it’s stretching it a bit far to say the mother was doing a loving act. She was buying a couple of drinks

i drink think anything bad happened other than the consequence obviously, which is just a freak accident but nobody’s really to blame.

The mother should have been more careful buying a drink where you can’t see it being made and not checking enough, then rejecting the offer of an epi pen

Batista could have done better double checking the order that was bizarre

but thinking more training of staff in a job which is usually short term rather than a career isn’t going to solve it

with hindsight they shouldnt have been getting their drinks at a fast food place if you want to live a massively risk averse life. You can’t trust fast food joints or commercial kitchens with your health if you want to be risk free

My dd has a severe allergy.

A couple of times when at hobbies or whatever there have been accidents by staff where she has been given the allergen. They have immediately called me and apologised and I have acted. I also don't blame them because I understand these things do happen. To be fair to the mum in this case I don't know how I would feel if it had led to my child's death. Id probably be looking for someone to blame even if that's not rational. When a child dies all rationality goes out the window and that's understandable.

My dd has been able to manage her allergy from a young age because we know we have to take responsibility and that we can't rely on others. It would be unfair.
I would take her to a restaurant or coffee shop for example but she wouldn't be allowed to order anything that even had a slight risk. It often means she has very limited choice but that's the way it is. It's not a milk allergy but for example she would only be allowed juice if that was the case. We also have a card the size of a credit card that explains the allergy in various languages that we use on holiday but also we live in an area where people speak lots of different languages. I would also explain verbally to staff and I would wait for them to repeat that they understood the order and allergy. We both repeat it and make sure it's absolutely clear. We ask about cross contamination and ask for how it's managed. We ask again when food arrives so it doesn't get confused.

99 percent of the time we take food with us that has been prepared at home. My dd is the only one at her childcare that takes a whole days food with her for example. Age takes a whole weekends food on residential trips etc it's safer and easier.

My DDs allergy is not life threatening but makes her very ill so it's not worth the risk.

I feel very sorry for all involved and I do t blame the mum here as she is grieving beyond anything I can imagine. I feel sorry for the staff too as she must be beside herself. It's a horrible situation all round. A beautiful young person has lost her life but I don't think anyone is to blame. Very tragic.

I don't blame the mum I mean.

I don't have the edit option on my app

I agree.

As a wheelchair user I am so grateful to all the people who campaigned for much improved accessibility. It means companies have to make places accessible wherever reasonable possible and that means my life is less limited than it would otherwise be.

Big profit making companies like Costa should absolutely be expected to have safe procedures and well trained and well paid staff . They shouldnt make money at the expense of safety

Perhaps they could also donate some of their chunky profits to help fund research into cures for /better treatments for allergies

Companies also need to recognise that a decent percentage of the next generation of adult consumers will have allergies and they (and hopefully their friends and family) will spend their money in safe businesses.

And people without allergies could be more mindful of them when planning activities. So many social activities revolve around food and it leads to people with severe allergies feeling regularly excluded.

Maybe catering businesses should pay their staff properly then . I bet senior execs at Costa and share holders in Costa make plenty

Exactly. And that Costa is a huge profit making entity.

Unlike Jimmy who has taken some drugs and decided to nick a car for fun

Exactly. And I tend to avoid driving at times /days when there are more likely to be drink drivers on the road.

But actually I am astounded that people think they can expect safety on the roads. But maybe that's because I lost a loved one to a drink driver.

I absolutely agree about the "big boys" paying their staff properly and not just food outlets. However, I still don't think that someone employed to serve hot chocolate and marshmallows (whether on £10 or £15 an hour) should have life and death responsibilities hardwired into their job contracts and the omnipresent potential of a manslaughter charge. I personally wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, would you?