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Why are majority of the riots in northern towns?

1000 replies

PhoebeMcPeePee · 04/08/2024 12:13

DH & I were watching the riots on the news this morning like most people absolutely horrified.

He's from one of the northern towns affected although we live in the south and started discussing why these riots now (and historically) tend to be more focused on northern towns but didn't really come up with any one thing. Any thoughts on this?

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12
Daltonbear1 · 04/08/2024 16:00

StressedAndDepressed1 · 04/08/2024 15:28

It's not an immigrant hotel.

It's a hotel that is used by the local council, and yes it does sometimes house immigrants. But it also houses women fleeing domestic violence and their children.

Sorry thanks for correction

Hoppinggreen · 04/08/2024 16:01

Lwrenn · 04/08/2024 15:47

@Hoppinggreen I've seen your posts for many years and have always imagined you to have lived in somewhere very fancy like Notting Hill.
There is about 20 posters usernames I think I've invented little backstories from and you got a detached Notting hill property with a shit ton of bedrooms and maybe a swimming pool/basement in the gym.

Oh I am sorry but I am pure Yorkshire (born in Birmingham though). I am considered a bit posh round here but only because I don't have much of a Yorkie accent.
House Is detached but none of the rest of it, we do have a small paddling pool in the garden for the dog .
I suppose you are just one more in the long list of people I have disappointed 😁

needhelpwiththisplease · 04/08/2024 16:01

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Goldenbear · 04/08/2024 16:01

Daltonbear1 · 04/08/2024 14:49

Well isabel oakshore you know girl friend of Richard tice mp of reform. Took a video of back to backs in Leeds Harthills where them other riots took place and was apparently shocked at the state and poverty. Me as a northerner that lives in a place that got levelled down not up thought wow you entitled posh lass .
The point is this country is like 2 different places us lot up here really think the previous gov have left us all behind and many people do not trust any gov
That being said none of that excuse the far right mobs. They know that many up here voted reform. Also many of the towns like Sunderland are not really that diverse. My place is but a load more Muslims then I think they would want to cross so I am surprised they didn't come here like they did in 2001 .
Yes alot of anger but that's neoliberalism for you capitalism has caused this. People moaning about paying tax when if multi billion pound corporations paid better tax we could invest that everywhere and cause less people being fed up and misdirection that to being told it's migrants fault when it's really not.

Edited

There is quite a stark divide manifests in different ways and makes somewhere less cosmopolitan, even things like limited places to eat of variety of food from around the world that you get in London but also the south east. I know someone who was coming back from A business trip in Leeds and they had run out of ‘real’ coffee at the station they only had granules. They were really stuck on day three of places to go for dinner as lots of meat and burgers and they do seem to have better butchers etc. but not much food for a more diverse taste, is that a manifestation of the lack of integration?

I grew up in London and in the 90s it wasn’t very integrated at all and had terrible problems with racism. I think that only really changed in 00s onwards.

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2024 16:01

The North has been affected a lot by gentrification and the buying up of property by the South.

The number of Southern Landlords to Northern Tenants is part of the issue. No one is addressing or acknowledging this problem and how it has significant impacts.

Communities have been uprooted and forced out of areas they have lived. Or they have become totally deprived and effectively exploited for rent.

I've yet to meet a Reform voter who wasn't racist though.

I live in the North. I would say I probably have met Reform voters who aren't racist. I don't agree with them at all but I get where they are coming from. They think the other parties are also racist. What they have issue with is, is the ignoring of other issues because they are inconvient to the accepted narrative.

They are white working class, and are frustrated that money is given to other communities and not their own. They aren't racist. Just fed up because the criticia for accessing who needs help seems to be based on identity not economic need and social deprivation. So they are seeing others getting opportunities they aren't getting because they tick the right identity box. Its about the concept of being overlooked because there are others deemed worse off because of skin colour when they might live in the same street for example. Meanwhile they feel like they are being told they are priviledged because they are white and 'slavery'. They know their history and feel exploited by the same people who owned slaves - they aren't comparing themselves to the same level of abuse as slaves, but they don't feel their families were those who benefitted from the trade either. They have long family histories of abject poverty and exploitation by the industrialists. They just want the poverty and desparation they are experiencing to be recognised and for money to be invested into their community and opportunities given to those from working class backgrounds. I do think this is fair comment given we know that social mobility is at its lowest level since before WWII. I think its more about having their own box to tick rather than removing those who are ticking those boxes in a lot of cases.

It gets complicated further by the fact that many immigrants tend to be the equivalent of 'middle class' when they come here so perhaps have educations and aspirations which are higher than those who have lived in the same place their whole lives. If you've travelled half way across the world your are going to have more about you than someone who hasn't bothered to travel to the opposite side of the pennines or has never been to London. Attitudes in the UK to education in working class communities are very different to a lot of immigrants. Education is seen as a way out for immigrants but this isn't the same in some white communities. Its seen as 'getting ideas above your station' and the mentality was you got a local job and looked after your family. And there was honour and pride in doing that. The expectation was you never left your community and you stayed there. With industries disappearing there hasn't been that structure and the blame is placed on those making decisions who aren't investing in these areas. If they are championing social mobility citing examples of immigrant families, then it is going to grate. Again, its not necessarily racist (but it is very easy to become racist and to be exploit as racists) but its about this inability to get access to opportunities and an attitude towards education as not being 'for them' (white working class - educated type are 'snobby and middle class') so you get this vicious cycle.

Its complex and its not as clear cut as straight racism. Jealous I think perhaps better describes it, but its undermined by poor attitudes to education generally (which isn't helped by Middle Classes looking down noses going 'eeewwww trashy stupid working classes').

Its hard to unpick.

One of these I know was utterly disgusted by a racist incident she saw and she wouldn't accept that behaviour at all. I really don't think she's racist. Shes a carer and wants to be a nurse, but keeps getting rejected even though she's got cracking references and the place she works is recommending her. She just doesn't speak in the 'right way' and hasn't been coached in interviews and keeps getting overlooked by recent school leavers who are a lot more polished. She's doing all 'the right things' but isn't getting the breaks.

I very much think there is a class thing going on in the midst of the entire arguement thats brushed aside as 'racism' because its easier to do that rather than acknowledge there is a class war issue raging. Thats why we are seeing political divides along educational and class lines to the degree we are. Its profound and as big as other splits in voting patterns, if not bigger.

Anonym00se · 04/08/2024 16:02

Lwrenn · 04/08/2024 15:55

They’ve set fire to the hotel now. That’s not a protest, it’s attempted murder. They’re absolute scum. I’d turn Boris Johnson’s water cannons on the lot of them.

hamstersarse · 04/08/2024 16:03

Lwrenn · 04/08/2024 15:55

It really is horrendous

But also totally predictable. I really hope that despite the actions that are happening right now in the riots that people are actually listened to

thicklysettled · 04/08/2024 16:03

FuckOffYokeofOpression · 04/08/2024 13:14

Different populations, histories and situations affecting integration and resources.

Northern areas brought in Bangladeshi's to work in the textile industries. These were low skilled, had few resources and some of those communities seem very poorly integrated. I've taught classes where there are even numbers of whites and pupils of Asian heritage. They seem really separate, different accents, group apart. The industries have collapsed, life is tough in areas away from goid transport links and wealth.

Places like Leicestershire had lots of Gujurati Indians, who were offered asylum from the Idi Amin regime in Uganda. They are business people, cosmopolitan, in many cases had wealth to start businesses and buy property so had a good start. They seem far more integrated via business, socialisation and attitude.

Look at ONS statistics for work, benefits, single family status, crime etc. There are differences between all groups that are going to affect integration, wealth and experiences of the community.

Very true. My hometown (Blackburn) is around 55/45 white/asian which you might think would have by now resulted in a certain amount of assimilation and/or integration. It really hasn't - in fact a recent newspaper article described it as segregated, which was shocking. It really is like two different towns and the populations really don't mix. It's awful to see.

On the bright side, the Tommy Robinson wankers planned a "protest" outside the town hall and it was an absolute damp squib. More counter-protesters showed up, thankfully.

ZenNudist · 04/08/2024 16:03

They've got nothing more to lose. They've been fucked over and disempowered by successive, mainly tory governments.

Demonhunter · 04/08/2024 16:03

Let's ignore London, Bristol, Aldershot, Weymouth, Nottingham and Stoke and just focus on the terrible Northerners hey!

But to answer a rational PP, yes we have seen a huge rise in immigration in the North in the last 10 - 15 years, to a very noticeable level. I'm not saying that's wholly a bad thing, but a lot of areas and businesses have been taken over by specific communities which rightly or wrongly, rubs some people up the wrong way.

For many years, immigration here seemed to mainly be Indian/Pakistani, East Asian, Filipino, Eastern and Southern European (namely Poland, Romania and Greece) West Indian/Caribbean with very few from elsewhere. I remember even as a kid 40+ years ago, my dads friends were quite diverse for the times, with a mix of white, west indian, indian and pakistani. As expected there was the odd pocket of racists but in general, it wasn't a huge issue.

There has been a huge rise in Middle eastern and African immigration. Turkish too,but from what I can gather, no one seems to mind the Turkish. I have noticed there seems to be more unrest now and I can only assume it has a lot to do with illegal immigration being highlighted more and all the media coverage with immigration. I think this creates problems as for certain ethnicities some assume everyone is illegal and have a blanket opinion.

Dahliasrule · 04/08/2024 16:04

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 04/08/2024 15:55

And in the midst of all this Kier Starmer floats off on holiday. Now before you all come for me I’m not saying he’s not entitled to a break but not at a bloody time like this!!!!!

Apparently, Sir Keir Starmer is not now going on holiday. (Reported in several papers and news sites)

Hoppinggreen · 04/08/2024 16:05

Goldenbear · 04/08/2024 16:01

There is quite a stark divide manifests in different ways and makes somewhere less cosmopolitan, even things like limited places to eat of variety of food from around the world that you get in London but also the south east. I know someone who was coming back from A business trip in Leeds and they had run out of ‘real’ coffee at the station they only had granules. They were really stuck on day three of places to go for dinner as lots of meat and burgers and they do seem to have better butchers etc. but not much food for a more diverse taste, is that a manifestation of the lack of integration?

I grew up in London and in the 90s it wasn’t very integrated at all and had terrible problems with racism. I think that only really changed in 00s onwards.

You might want to check out the cafes and restaurants available in Leeds.

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2024 16:05

Goldenbear · 04/08/2024 16:01

There is quite a stark divide manifests in different ways and makes somewhere less cosmopolitan, even things like limited places to eat of variety of food from around the world that you get in London but also the south east. I know someone who was coming back from A business trip in Leeds and they had run out of ‘real’ coffee at the station they only had granules. They were really stuck on day three of places to go for dinner as lots of meat and burgers and they do seem to have better butchers etc. but not much food for a more diverse taste, is that a manifestation of the lack of integration?

I grew up in London and in the 90s it wasn’t very integrated at all and had terrible problems with racism. I think that only really changed in 00s onwards.

LEEDS?!

Are you having a laugh.

You know BBC staff refused to move to Manchester because of the lack of cheese shops in the North. Seriously. Becuase they had these prejudiced ideas about the place but hadn't actually bothered to visits and look for these places nearby. Those who did eventually move up were surprised and many will now say their quality of life is better than it was in London...

Leeds isn't some backwater. Going on a business trip and not knowing the city doesn't meant here is a lack of places to eat which are not burgers. Thats a lack of knowing the city and where to go. Thats ignorance not a lack of diversity and Leeds being some kind of backwater!

I despair of posts like this, and they do sort of prove my point about the class war thats running in parallel with these issues tbh.

Youcantcallacatspider · 04/08/2024 16:05

hamstersarse · 04/08/2024 15:03

These are the areas where mass immigration has most affected communities, and they’ve had no say about it. At all. Worse, they’ve been labelled and judged for wanting a say.

there are places in Leeds, manchester, Liverpool and beyond that are essentially segregated ghettos.

I despise the framing of normal working class people whose communities have changed beyond recognition as racists.

They are not being labelled as racist for having concerns around these issues. They are being labelled because they're violent thugs without a shred of critical thinking or independent thought. They are destroying their own towns and attacking innocent people and police officers. What's most nausiating is that they're doing it in the name of those beautiful, innocent children when parents have pleaded with them not to. There is literally no excuse for it. It's absolutely vile.

In contrast, I was in London yesterday and we inadvertantly passed through a palestine protest. These are people who's homeland is experiencing immense suffering and evil that most of these British thugs wouldn't even be able to dream of. Many of the crowd I'm sure are directly affected by it or have friends/family affected. I walked through it with my young daughter and didn't feel at all unsafe. It was conducted with peace and dignity, because that's generally how you conduct yourself if you're actually passionate and invested in the issue and not a mindless neanderthal...

floradora · 04/08/2024 16:07

@hamstersarse We've just had a general election - did all the rioters (looters, arsonists etc) vote? Can I suggest you read this thread https://x.com/stand_for_all/status/1820013975922221234 to have a sense of how the media and politicians have distorted the facts about immigration, and amplified the problem to stoke fear?

x.com

https://x.com/stand_for_all/status/1820013975922221234

hamstersarse · 04/08/2024 16:07

Youcantcallacatspider · 04/08/2024 16:05

They are not being labelled as racist for having concerns around these issues. They are being labelled because they're violent thugs without a shred of critical thinking or independent thought. They are destroying their own towns and attacking innocent people and police officers. What's most nausiating is that they're doing it in the name of those beautiful, innocent children when parents have pleaded with them not to. There is literally no excuse for it. It's absolutely vile.

In contrast, I was in London yesterday and we inadvertantly passed through a palestine protest. These are people who's homeland is experiencing immense suffering and evil that most of these British thugs wouldn't even be able to dream of. Many of the crowd I'm sure are directly affected by it or have friends/family affected. I walked through it with my young daughter and didn't feel at all unsafe. It was conducted with peace and dignity, because that's generally how you conduct yourself if you're actually passionate and invested in the issue and not a mindless neanderthal...

Edited

Try walking through that protest if you are jewish?

The labelling has been going on for many years, before these riots. FFS anyone who voted Brexit was a racist!

Goldenbear · 04/08/2024 16:08

Hoppinggreen · 04/08/2024 16:05

You might want to check out the cafes and restaurants available in Leeds.

They did check them out but when you live in London this is not variety as you know it, especially if you have grown up in very diverse part of North London. Running out of real coffee at a station would be unheard of in the south.

Daltonbear1 · 04/08/2024 16:08

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 04/08/2024 15:55

And in the midst of all this Kier Starmer floats off on holiday. Now before you all come for me I’m not saying he’s not entitled to a break but not at a bloody time like this!!!!!

He is not on holiday right now

Happyher · 04/08/2024 16:08

Poverty, inadequate education, public services overwhelmed due to Tory mismanagement of economy and then some farage comes along and tells them it’s all foreigners fault

Livelovebehappy · 04/08/2024 16:09

All this rioting and burning down hotels will just result in all people with immigration concerns being lumped together with these idiots, and the focus being on ‘sorting out’ racist violent thugs. I hope Starmer realises that there are a lot of very moderate anti-violent people in the UK who want their very real concerns about uncontrolled immigration discussed in Government.

Daltonbear1 · 04/08/2024 16:09

Goldenbear · 04/08/2024 16:08

They did check them out but when you live in London this is not variety as you know it, especially if you have grown up in very diverse part of North London. Running out of real coffee at a station would be unheard of in the south.

Leeds is very gentrified there are loads of different types was it leeds itself? Because outside of Leeds may be different I live in an area where thee isn’t much choice

hamstersarse · 04/08/2024 16:09

floradora · 04/08/2024 16:07

@hamstersarse We've just had a general election - did all the rioters (looters, arsonists etc) vote? Can I suggest you read this thread https://x.com/stand_for_all/status/1820013975922221234 to have a sense of how the media and politicians have distorted the facts about immigration, and amplified the problem to stoke fear?

Do you really expect me to take that Twitter thread seriously?

Goldenbear · 04/08/2024 16:10

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2024 16:05

LEEDS?!

Are you having a laugh.

You know BBC staff refused to move to Manchester because of the lack of cheese shops in the North. Seriously. Becuase they had these prejudiced ideas about the place but hadn't actually bothered to visits and look for these places nearby. Those who did eventually move up were surprised and many will now say their quality of life is better than it was in London...

Leeds isn't some backwater. Going on a business trip and not knowing the city doesn't meant here is a lack of places to eat which are not burgers. Thats a lack of knowing the city and where to go. Thats ignorance not a lack of diversity and Leeds being some kind of backwater!

I despair of posts like this, and they do sort of prove my point about the class war thats running in parallel with these issues tbh.

Yes, Leeds, they have visited many times as another office there and therefore been recommended by local Leeds colleagues.

Rosscameasdoody · 04/08/2024 16:11

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You might want to remember that Southport, where the tragedy took place, is in the North. And I think poverty, more diversity in the population and lack of opportunity in the north have a lot more to do with it than overt racism, if you discount the far right organisations who seem to be mobile and turn up wherever there is trouble - London, Aldershot and Bristol, in the south, included. In some towns immigration has changed the landscape and local services are stretched. There is poverty, people feel helpless and not listened to, and government waving a big stick instead of addressing the actual problems just exacerbates that. If you haven’t experienced it, it’s difficult to understand it.

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2024 16:11

Hoppinggreen · 04/08/2024 16:05

You might want to check out the cafes and restaurants available in Leeds.

Quite.

TripAdvisor is useful. And will tell you in about five seconds how much that poster is talking out their arse.

DH had an American friend who swore that the quality of food in the UK was dreadful. When he pressed her further, he found out her UK friends had just recommended bog standard chain pubs to eat in....

Imagine having someone asking you for recommendations about going the local Green King.

Likewise, if you are in the city centre and can't be bothered to walk more than a block whilst on a business trip (but would happily take two tubes to go somewhere good in London).

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