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Why are majority of the riots in northern towns?

1000 replies

PhoebeMcPeePee · 04/08/2024 12:13

DH & I were watching the riots on the news this morning like most people absolutely horrified.

He's from one of the northern towns affected although we live in the south and started discussing why these riots now (and historically) tend to be more focused on northern towns but didn't really come up with any one thing. Any thoughts on this?

OP posts:
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12
mumedu · 04/08/2024 16:48

Poverty, deprivation and racism.

wutheringkites · 04/08/2024 16:48

@Goldenbear

You're coming across terribly.

I was born and grew up in North East London, went to Uni there and worked in zone one until I moved to Leeds in my late 30s.

So yes, I know what London has to offer but I'm just not an idiot with my head up my own arse.

Leeds has the highest paying jobs in the country after London. I actually find the city much more buzzy with young people than London as in the last couple of years I lived there as they aren't all spending 50% of their salary on rent.

AllyCart · 04/08/2024 16:49

Goldenbear · 04/08/2024 16:10

Yes, Leeds, they have visited many times as another office there and therefore been recommended by local Leeds colleagues.

I'm not sure you realise the magnitude of the utter bullshit you're regurgitating here.

It's utter bollocks to claim what you are about Leeds. It is a massive place with a huge range of eating/drinking options, many of them open 24 hours a day, from Michelin starred restaurants to takeaways from every culture/nationality you can imagine.

gardenmusic · 04/08/2024 16:49

Seriously, seaside here, not a wealthy area, but lots of holiday makers, plenty to do and pleasant weather. There is surely a better way to put this, but they have better things to do.
I am sorry if you are trapped in this mayhem.

C0rdeliaChase · 04/08/2024 16:49

Goldenbear · 04/08/2024 16:01

There is quite a stark divide manifests in different ways and makes somewhere less cosmopolitan, even things like limited places to eat of variety of food from around the world that you get in London but also the south east. I know someone who was coming back from A business trip in Leeds and they had run out of ‘real’ coffee at the station they only had granules. They were really stuck on day three of places to go for dinner as lots of meat and burgers and they do seem to have better butchers etc. but not much food for a more diverse taste, is that a manifestation of the lack of integration?

I grew up in London and in the 90s it wasn’t very integrated at all and had terrible problems with racism. I think that only really changed in 00s onwards.

WTF? It isn't still the 1950s when you get past the Watford Gap you know!

Growsomeballswoman · 04/08/2024 16:50

Just seen on the news a women in Rotherham protesting with a toddler. Wtf.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 04/08/2024 16:50

Goldenbear · 04/08/2024 16:42

I’m just repeating what I was told about Leeds now. It depends what you see as ‘good food’. Lots of gods butchers in the North and appears to be lots more meat consumed so good quality but the variety is what they said is lacking.

So you are a Londoner or did you move from London and had lived somewhere before? London is massive so you could come from or have grown up in a part that was lacking in diversity. This person is from a part of North London and just are used to more variety.

So now you are managing to imply that the people who are saying your friend is mistaken and there is plenty of variety in the food offer in Leeds city centre are perhaps a bit ignorant, think good food just means plenty of butcher’s shops and have never experienced real variety.
You know what they say about when you are in a hole….

Lifeomars · 04/08/2024 16:52

PrincessofWells · 04/08/2024 16:15

And she is absolutely entitled to say what she did. Reform and Nigel Farage are divisive and thrive on carefully concealed hatred and rage. They are abhorrent in their views and their behaviour.

Farage has been silent the whole weekend, wonder if he is glorying in this and planning his next move. Personally I think that parliament needs to be recalled and he is asked some very tough questions. Doubt he will turn up if this happens. He will just do one of his propaganda videos

Summerflames · 04/08/2024 16:53

StressedAndDepressed1 · 04/08/2024 15:46

100,000 vacancies in the NHS. Thousands of jobs going on Indeed. There are jobs, they just don't have the brains to do them.

I still live at home. I'm not rioting and setting hotels alight because I'm unhappy with that. It's not an excuse.

I watched a video, one guy blamed immigration as to why he couldn't get a job. The news reporter said "but you have a criminal record don't you?" He says "yes". The reporter asks "what is it for and how long ago was it that you were released from prison", the man replies "I was released 3 years ago, it was for assault" and the reporter said "but you still blame immigrants for not being able to get a job" and he says "yes".

MyHonestRoseSeal · 04/08/2024 16:54

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Previously banned poster.

volingaround · 04/08/2024 16:54

Goldenbear · 04/08/2024 16:08

They did check them out but when you live in London this is not variety as you know it, especially if you have grown up in very diverse part of North London. Running out of real coffee at a station would be unheard of in the south.

Having lived in both London and Leeds, I can tell you they really didn't "check them out" in any great detail 😂 Of course London has more places, it is flipping massive and Leeds is a relatively small city, but it is just as cosmopolitan, has a great variety of restaurants, and I do not believe for a second they could not have found a proper cup of coffee with the barest minimum of googling.

Honestly, I would say the attitude surprises me, but having worked in a London office as a stealth (i.e. accentless) Northerner, the ignorance and sense of superiority I encountered from a not insignificant number of my colleagues who didn't realise where I was from was bloody breathtaking.

Cyclingmummy1 · 04/08/2024 16:55

Mousefoot · 04/08/2024 14:53

Beer. £7 a pint here. c. £3.50 on Holy Island and in Newcastle City Centre.

Eating out hugely cheaper too and pretty much all the leisure activities we booked.

Train fares, £4.20 for the 40 mins single journey from Hexham to Newcastle. £16.80 for a single from where I live, for the 30 min journey into London.

Where did you go? Wetherspoons?

AdviceNeeded2024 · 04/08/2024 16:55

@Goldenbear you come across as a classist snob who has done very little travelling around this country your whole life.

Hoppinggreen · 04/08/2024 16:55

Anonym00se · 04/08/2024 16:30

But none of them sell real London coffee, they only sell Yorkshire tea and Ovaltine.

With Ferret milk

wutheringkites · 04/08/2024 16:56

Im not going to defend @Goldenbear here because they really are being stubbornly ignorant...

but I have noticed the level of surprise some friends from London have when they visit me in Leeds and I take them somewhere nice for dinner.

It's quite sweet really. It reminds me of a Canadian once asking me if English people have beds and pillows.

mumedu · 04/08/2024 16:56

hamstersarse · 04/08/2024 16:07

Try walking through that protest if you are jewish?

The labelling has been going on for many years, before these riots. FFS anyone who voted Brexit was a racist!

There are Jewish people that also support Palestine and are against the genocide that is happening and tge longstanding occupation. Some Jews have walked in solidarity with Pslestinians on these peaceful protests.

1dayatatime · 04/08/2024 16:57

@Fluufer

"What is stopping white working class men from accessing education? Not everything is someone else's fault"

Two main things:

  1. A racial element ie positive discrimination and
  2. a socioeconomic element.

If you are poor, white and male you are seen at best as a problem and at worst ignored. And from that perspective "positive discrimination" simply looks like discrimination.

www.tcsnetwork.co.uk/white-working-class-boys-are-falling-behind-everyone-else/#:~:text=A%20new%20study%20has%20found,universities%20to%20promote%20diversity%20intensifies.

Hoppinggreen · 04/08/2024 16:57

dogmandu · 04/08/2024 16:29

Do muslims look down on people that aren't muslims?

Do muslims treat women as less worth than men?

I sometimes wonder who is in reality far right.

I think you need to add the word "some" in there a couple of times.
Like this - "some" white working class men are racist scum

AdviceNeeded2024 · 04/08/2024 16:58

@volingaround Exactly the same for me. Went to work meeting with London colleagues in my organisation, we went out to eat in the evening and they took the piss out of and mimicked my accent all night, in a very unfriendly way, and suggested I was uneducated and thick. And I have quite a flat, less distinct accent than some places. Behaviour was disgusting and I’d never met these people before in my life.

SpaceHogger · 04/08/2024 16:58

Poverty has nothing whatever to do with it. Southport is a very genteel town, as is Lytham St.Annes, even though both are close to Blackpool

You are joking me right? Are you from Southport? I was brought up round there. You moved up the Liverpool to Southport line, the more money you earned like Formby, Ainsdale, Birkdale. Southport used to have MC shops, now it’s all Primark and Poundland.

I didn’t go there for about 15 years and then went a couple of years ago. It was run down, and a shadow of its former self. It has a very mixed population now, mainly Eastern Europeans.

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2024 16:58

Axelotylbottle · 04/08/2024 16:33

Good post. Immigration is not supported well in the UK.

I used to be an immigrant elsewhere in a country that was rapidly building roads, gp surgeries, schools and flats (and all the other infrastructure needed). Unsurprisingly, immigration was largely welcomed.

In this country immigrants are dumped in places least able to cope - the chart up thread was illuminating.

A lot of people want immigration being done properly, and it's just not and this isn't going away. Immigrants aren't a homogeneous mass either,some of the people that I know most against unsupported immigration are immigrants because they are affected by this. I am married to an immigrant.

But if you try and talk about immigration at all (except on mn) nuanced debate is dismissed in favour of crying 'racist'. Which doesn't make life for immigrants better, in fact quite the opposite.

One of the people I know who is most vocal about immigration not working is a migrant from North Africa.

For various reasons he mixes a lot more with other migrants than I do and he gets really pissed off with certain groups because of cultural differences in attitudes to work and the to the state.

He'd argue that culturally certain nationalities will try and game the system as much as they can - they come from cultures where corruption is rife. You survive by getting the most out of the state and the establishment as you can. Attitudes to rules are very different.You bend them, you don't follow them. Health and safety is an alien concept.

He's trying to compete with people like this with his business (trade).

Some he thinks have come to milk the system and not work hard, whilst he has done exactly the opposite and tried to intergrate.

Now there's lots of stuff written on cultural differences with regards to time keeping and authority. Not everyone from the same country is like that, but more often than not there are trends. There's a whole industry advising multinationals on how to navigate these cultural differences.

There's also localised cultural differences within the UK. Something we don't really appreciate and have good understanding of.

The best example I use for this is this tradition in old mining towns about pride through work that came from the church and methodist ideas.When the work was removed, the pride went and so did this sense of dignity.

You also have weird identity related things with the North that people from the South just don't get. If you look at the towns around Manchester the variation in accents is HUGE. Someone from the south will just think 'northern'. But someone from the North will be able to tell which town someone is from. These towns all had pride and rivalry from that identity. Most of it was friendly, but it MATTERED.

In having huge shifts in migration - not just from abroad, but also the movement of people from the South to the North, this has affected these senses of identity. Thats why I talk about gentrification as being part of the issue.

There's a different value culture where priorities are on other things. Its hard to explain - but its a bit like different cultural attitudes to time. You have to be mindful of this when communicating to different groups.

I've ALWAYS felt this and been sensitive to it. I'm middle class in the North. You FEEL it and I've had learn to talk in different ways and about different things in different social situations because of these cultural differences I would come across every day. Northern Middle Class is weirdly different to people who are middle class from the South too, to add a different aspect.

Now imagine you've been a community which has been isolated from these differences much more. Then things start to change, and not for the better.

There is an inability to communicate across many many different groups, in relation to issues over poverty and social deprivation. Writing people off as 'racist' for voting for Reform, misses the point. Farage is communicating with people in certain groups better than the like of Labour and the Tories. Think about this. Hard. Why is he managing to do this. Its too easy to say its down to racism. Its not. Its about a better understanding of these underlying cultural identity issues and histories and about being able to exploit poverty.

Why do middle class people understand and value cultural differences with people who live abroad, but not within their own country?

I find the subject fascinating. But yes, class is DEFINITELY a massive thing.

And its combined with a bunch of opportunist dickheads looking to capitalise on this fragility when ever they can.

ViciousCurrentBun · 04/08/2024 16:59

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Hoppinggreen · 04/08/2024 17:01

Goldenbear · 04/08/2024 16:42

I’m just repeating what I was told about Leeds now. It depends what you see as ‘good food’. Lots of gods butchers in the North and appears to be lots more meat consumed so good quality but the variety is what they said is lacking.

So you are a Londoner or did you move from London and had lived somewhere before? London is massive so you could come from or have grown up in a part that was lacking in diversity. This person is from a part of North London and just are used to more variety.

Yep, we just eat meat and never drink coffee.
Before you just repeat things maybe fact check a bit first so you don't make yourself look daft

Gymnopedie · 04/08/2024 17:01

When you live in some of the most deprived areas in the country, where the heavy industries that were the backbone of those areas have gone with nothing to replace them, when the shops are boarded up, I do understand that it must be difficult to be living in poverty and hearing about the millions being spent every day to house refugees and asylum seekers.

My neighbour (we live in one of those deprived areas) has several houses he lets out. They're done to a very high standard, I've seen them and he is no rogue landlord. He is contracted with the Home Office to make some of them available to to the refugees and asylum seekers. They pay nothing. The government covers it all. No rent, no council tax, and no utilities. The latter is significant - while pensioners shiver in the winter, these people have the heating on 24/7 (and even in the summer). That's got to sting.

If the properties are damaged, often deliberately as a protest that the Home Office isn't processing their claim fast enough (so nothing to do with my neighbour), the HO picks up the bill.

Rioting isn't the answer. I cannot see how they think setting fire to a library or a police station helps their cause. But I understand some of their anger.

My neighbour thought he was doing a good thing providing these homes. Now he would like to get out.

MrsKeats · 04/08/2024 17:01

jugglesandspins · 04/08/2024 12:57

I’ll probably be flamed. DH is from the North East. He’s lived down South for the last 25 years.

We live near Brighton in the area where I grew up. I was astounded and completely taken aback with SIL and her ex/husbands attitude towards LGBT. It was like hearing an echo from 100 years before. SIL told me not to talk about a LGBT family (my family) wedding in front of her 10 year old as she didn’t want her hearing about it as she’s not told her about things “like that.”My 5 year old was just like oh yeah Aunty T and Aunty S are getting married.

I think in some parts they are very traditional and it’s handed down from generation to generation and they’re not very open minded about things.

Sigh.
Brighton is an awful place.

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