Page 11 | Why are majority of the riots in northern towns?

PhoebeMcPeePee · 2024-08-04T11:13:57+00:00

DH & I were watching the riots on the news this morning like most people absolutely horrified. He's from one of the northern towns affected although we live in the south and started discussing why these riots now (and historically) tend to be more focused on northern towns but didn't really come up with any one thing. Any thoughts on this?

Rosscameasdoody · 04/08/2024 16:34

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2024 16:01

The North has been affected a lot by gentrification and the buying up of property by the South.

The number of Southern Landlords to Northern Tenants is part of the issue. No one is addressing or acknowledging this problem and how it has significant impacts.

Communities have been uprooted and forced out of areas they have lived. Or they have become totally deprived and effectively exploited for rent.

I've yet to meet a Reform voter who wasn't racist though.

I live in the North. I would say I probably have met Reform voters who aren't racist. I don't agree with them at all but I get where they are coming from. They think the other parties are also racist. What they have issue with is, is the ignoring of other issues because they are inconvient to the accepted narrative.

They are white working class, and are frustrated that money is given to other communities and not their own. They aren't racist. Just fed up because the criticia for accessing who needs help seems to be based on identity not economic need and social deprivation. So they are seeing others getting opportunities they aren't getting because they tick the right identity box. Its about the concept of being overlooked because there are others deemed worse off because of skin colour when they might live in the same street for example. Meanwhile they feel like they are being told they are priviledged because they are white and 'slavery'. They know their history and feel exploited by the same people who owned slaves - they aren't comparing themselves to the same level of abuse as slaves, but they don't feel their families were those who benefitted from the trade either. They have long family histories of abject poverty and exploitation by the industrialists. They just want the poverty and desparation they are experiencing to be recognised and for money to be invested into their community and opportunities given to those from working class backgrounds. I do think this is fair comment given we know that social mobility is at its lowest level since before WWII. I think its more about having their own box to tick rather than removing those who are ticking those boxes in a lot of cases.

It gets complicated further by the fact that many immigrants tend to be the equivalent of 'middle class' when they come here so perhaps have educations and aspirations which are higher than those who have lived in the same place their whole lives. If you've travelled half way across the world your are going to have more about you than someone who hasn't bothered to travel to the opposite side of the pennines or has never been to London. Attitudes in the UK to education in working class communities are very different to a lot of immigrants. Education is seen as a way out for immigrants but this isn't the same in some white communities. Its seen as 'getting ideas above your station' and the mentality was you got a local job and looked after your family. And there was honour and pride in doing that. The expectation was you never left your community and you stayed there. With industries disappearing there hasn't been that structure and the blame is placed on those making decisions who aren't investing in these areas. If they are championing social mobility citing examples of immigrant families, then it is going to grate. Again, its not necessarily racist (but it is very easy to become racist and to be exploit as racists) but its about this inability to get access to opportunities and an attitude towards education as not being 'for them' (white working class - educated type are 'snobby and middle class') so you get this vicious cycle.

Its complex and its not as clear cut as straight racism. Jealous I think perhaps better describes it, but its undermined by poor attitudes to education generally (which isn't helped by Middle Classes looking down noses going 'eeewwww trashy stupid working classes').

Its hard to unpick.

One of these I know was utterly disgusted by a racist incident she saw and she wouldn't accept that behaviour at all. I really don't think she's racist. Shes a carer and wants to be a nurse, but keeps getting rejected even though she's got cracking references and the place she works is recommending her. She just doesn't speak in the 'right way' and hasn't been coached in interviews and keeps getting overlooked by recent school leavers who are a lot more polished. She's doing all 'the right things' but isn't getting the breaks.

I very much think there is a class thing going on in the midst of the entire arguement thats brushed aside as 'racism' because its easier to do that rather than acknowledge there is a class war issue raging. Thats why we are seeing political divides along educational and class lines to the degree we are. Its profound and as big as other splits in voting patterns, if not bigger.

Great post. Absolutely spot on.

zara223 · 04/08/2024 16:35

Romeiswheretheheartis · 04/08/2024 14:23

It really frustrates me when some people (not pp on this thread) talk about lack of integration as if the Muslim/immigrant communities deliberately segregate themselves. After I'd moved into my current house I learnt that the reason the previous owners had sold was because a Muslim family had bought next door. They are the loveliest neighbours I could wish to have. Someone else in my road is now moving out because she now has Muslim next door neighbours. People can't on one hand say 'they don't integrate' whilst causing the segregation themselves by moving away when Muslim/immigrant families move into their community.

Needless to say, I'm ashamed of our country at the moment.

I am a Muslim family. I live on a street with most people being white/English and try to integrate with the community without losing my OWN identity so I won't join someone for a drink in the pub (and this is what the rioting thugs think when they think of integration).
I swap gifts with my neighbours, pop in, clean the community up, take my neighbours bins out etc.
Alot of people think muslims don't want to integrate but we actually do but as the poster said if theys a Muslim on the street they move out and then call the areas "gangs of immigrants sticking together".
I love travelling around England And Hiking with my family but some areas don't want ethnic minorities to even visit so it makes me worried because I have young children.

I helped a lady once her autistic child was being bullied at a holiday park where me and my kids were staying. She was crying and getting panicked and lacked knowledge what to do in that situation so I helped her find her lodge and get back to her parents to explain the situation. When I got to her mum I thought she would be grateful someone helped her vulnerable child to safety but she totally ignored me as if I wasn't talking and shouted at her autistic child to stop telling people LIKE ME she's autistic and blanked me. My child who's also special needs asked me why she was ignoring us and that's the day I had to explain racism to him.
Il never forget that day but for the most part where I live and throughout life I have experienced minimal racism and like to stay positive and friendly.

Sidenote- next week I have booked a holiday to a seaside town but won't be going and have lost money on the booking due to the riots I won't be travelling around u.k in the school holidays.

Sethera · 04/08/2024 16:35

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2024 16:32

ZOMG.

You mean... it wasn't a greasy spoon with someone serving with whippets out back?

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Leeds station last week at rush hour 😁

Why are majority of the riots in northern towns?

Goldenbear · 04/08/2024 16:35

Livelovebehappy · 04/08/2024 16:27

It just didn’t happen. Probably that particular person felt they needed to say something disparaging about their visit, because it was expected of them, so plucked this ‘story’ out of their arse, just to provide amusement to the person asking, because many people in London have this vision of the North being some backwater area.

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It did happen because someone I’m very close to was with them at the time they questioned the person serving and asked if that could be true. They were so surprised this is why they were in disbelief!

I have family in the Midlands and went to university in the North so it’s not like I have never been to Leeds, Manchester, Durham, Newcastle. Growing up in a pretty dodgy part of West London was not exactly a bed of Roses and I’m sure much worse than a majority of places in the North but there is no point in denying the fact that London is more integrated (now).

C0rdeliaChase · 04/08/2024 16:37

jugglesandspins · 04/08/2024 12:57

I’ll probably be flamed. DH is from the North East. He’s lived down South for the last 25 years.

We live near Brighton in the area where I grew up. I was astounded and completely taken aback with SIL and her ex/husbands attitude towards LGBT. It was like hearing an echo from 100 years before. SIL told me not to talk about a LGBT family (my family) wedding in front of her 10 year old as she didn’t want her hearing about it as she’s not told her about things “like that.”My 5 year old was just like oh yeah Aunty T and Aunty S are getting married.

I think in some parts they are very traditional and it’s handed down from generation to generation and they’re not very open minded about things.

Unless he's from a tiny secluded village it's got sod all to with in some parts they are very traditional and it’s handed down from generation to generation and they’re not very open minded about things.

Liverpool has one of the biggest gay communities in the country. Yes, it's north west not east but we're not that different. Newcastle being similar. And Liverpool is very multicultural, (the area I live in has equal amounts of white, black and Asian people).

wutheringkites · 04/08/2024 16:37

@Goldenbear

You've made yourself look ridiculous.

I'm from London and live in Leeds and there is no end of good food options here.

IMustDoMoreExercise · 04/08/2024 16:38

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Unfortunately, Boris Johnson destroyed the Tories with lies and corruption and giving minsterial jobs to sycophantic idiots.

There are so many decent Tory MPs who lost their seats because of him.

Unfortunately, the Reform lot are even worse than Boris et al, so I could never vote for them even though I agree with some of their policies.

Lwrenn · 04/08/2024 16:39

zara223 · 04/08/2024 16:35

I am a Muslim family. I live on a street with most people being white/English and try to integrate with the community without losing my OWN identity so I won't join someone for a drink in the pub (and this is what the rioting thugs think when they think of integration).
I swap gifts with my neighbours, pop in, clean the community up, take my neighbours bins out etc.
Alot of people think muslims don't want to integrate but we actually do but as the poster said if theys a Muslim on the street they move out and then call the areas "gangs of immigrants sticking together".
I love travelling around England And Hiking with my family but some areas don't want ethnic minorities to even visit so it makes me worried because I have young children.

I helped a lady once her autistic child was being bullied at a holiday park where me and my kids were staying. She was crying and getting panicked and lacked knowledge what to do in that situation so I helped her find her lodge and get back to her parents to explain the situation. When I got to her mum I thought she would be grateful someone helped her vulnerable child to safety but she totally ignored me as if I wasn't talking and shouted at her autistic child to stop telling people LIKE ME she's autistic and blanked me. My child who's also special needs asked me why she was ignoring us and that's the day I had to explain racism to him.
Il never forget that day but for the most part where I live and throughout life I have experienced minimal racism and like to stay positive and friendly.

Sidenote- next week I have booked a holiday to a seaside town but won't be going and have lost money on the booking due to the riots I won't be travelling around u.k in the school holidays.

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Zara223, I am sorry this is your experience, truly. Not really much else to say but how awful all of that is x

Lifeomars · 04/08/2024 16:40

Sarahconnor1 · 04/08/2024 12:30

Just like Liverpool did they will send them packing rather quickly...

Not always. It kicked off badly in various areas of Liverpool yesterday.

they set fire to a library in Liverpool last night, what on earth do they think this will achieve other than depriving people of a valuable community resource. Is it "stop the books" now?

Piggywaspushed · 04/08/2024 16:40

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2024 16:33

It'd be interesting to see a list of town that those arrested have some from.

I would not be remotely surprised if Luton is over represented.

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I think a few recently were from Essex way.

C0rdeliaChase · 04/08/2024 16:41

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 04/08/2024 16:11

I’m in Liverpool and one of our libraries has been set on fire. People (citizens and Police) have been attacked. How is that in anyway protecting and fighting for children. And to use the murders and attempted murders of those beautiful little Children and their Teacher as a reason for this thuggery sickeningly disgusting. Perhaps with the money they’re not to to pensions for the WFA they can use it to build a few prisons and throw them (thugs)all in for at least 10 years. Make an example of them.
Also why are they shouting stop the boats. The murder of little Alice, Elsie Dot and Bebe was born in bred in the UK. It’s not nothing to do with any boats. I’m so heartbroken and angry right now.

The library was off County Road wasn't it? Was all the riots more in the North of Liverpool, and on the Strand? I haven't seen any reports of riots in South Liverpool, (I'm in Wavertree).

wutheringkites · 04/08/2024 16:42

What's the link between EDF riots and instant coffee in Leeds train station?

Goldenbear · 04/08/2024 16:42

wutheringkites · 04/08/2024 16:37

@Goldenbear

You've made yourself look ridiculous.

I'm from London and live in Leeds and there is no end of good food options here.

I’m just repeating what I was told about Leeds now. It depends what you see as ‘good food’. Lots of gods butchers in the North and appears to be lots more meat consumed so good quality but the variety is what they said is lacking.

So you are a Londoner or did you move from London and had lived somewhere before? London is massive so you could come from or have grown up in a part that was lacking in diversity. This person is from a part of North London and just are used to more variety.

SilverCatStripes · 04/08/2024 16:42

Flatulence · 04/08/2024 16:27

It's quite complex but it boils down to lack of opportunity and with it a lack of decent jobs and the ensuing poverty. I live in the North of England and there's been rioting near me.

Lots of towns in the North and Midlands grew up around certain industries. And when those industries closed the heart was ripped out of them.

People living in these areas feel left behind, ignored, undervalued. Whether they are or not (and fwiw I think many places are) is immaterial - that's the perception.

And when you feel like that, you want someone to blame. Because why are so many people doing alright when you and yours are having a shit time?

In come the far right - the experts at placing that blame on people who are brown and black, immigrants, people who aren't Christian etc. The far right has long attracted some highly competent communicators and calculating people: Oswald Moseley, H*tler, Farage etc. They excelled at getting messages across.

And if you live in a town with a lack of opportunity and you see hotels housing asylum seekers or people of colour committing a crime while you're struggling then that's your "proof" that what articulate, intelligent, bloke from the BNP said is true. And finally someone's "listening" to you.

And that's how it happens. That's how the far right get a grasp in areas like Rotherham. People in Rotherham (to give one example) aren't stupid or naive - they're fed up of their lot. And their blame goes somewhere. And today it's on Muslims and asylum seekers. In the 30s, it was on Jews.

Oh and then some thugs just want a riot. Doesn't matter when, where or what. They just like rioting and here's an excuse.

And no, I'm about a million miles from being far right myself. I'm the polar opposite. I loathe the riots. They're horrific. But it's surprising - given what a divided society we live in - that we don't see more of this.

Spot on.

What’s really eye opening on this thread are the posters who absolutely refuse to engage with any discussion or debate about the underlying reasons as to why this has happened, and seem incapable of realising that their closed minded approach is contributing to the problem.

Sarahconnor1 · 04/08/2024 16:43

Poverty has nothing whatever to do with it. Southport is a very genteel town, as is Lytham St.Annes, even though both are close to Blackpool.

Southport has some very impoverished areas, Lord Street once a brilliant shopping area is now full of empty units and charity shops. It's decline is about 10 years behind blackpool

1dayatatime · 04/08/2024 16:43

@Youcantcallacatspider

"And yes I do absolutely label you at best a bit thick and at worst racist"

Hmm I generally find that insulting those who hold a different opinion to be a somewhat ineffective and counter productive counter argument.

It's polarised politics such as this and an inability to see a topic from the other sides perspective that has got us in this divided society mess.

NewGirlinClass · 04/08/2024 16:44

Labour have only been in government a few days so I don't expect much action yet.
As Immigration and The Boats has been a hot topic for a while Starmer really should have had a better plan than giving them an amnesty.
He is Prime Minister for The UK not Minister for the Sand Dunes behind Calais.

AgnesX · 04/08/2024 16:44

Startingagainandagain · 04/08/2024 12:24

I assume they targeted these places hoping to use poverty and lack of opportunities to push their scapegoating of immigrants...

London and the South are used to having a multicultural society. So yes, there were protests in London but they did not really catch on as in most London boroughs the far right will quickly find out that there are not welcome.

Same if they try to do this in Glasgow. Just like Liverpool did they will send them packing rather quickly...

I really hope so.

MyHonestRoseSeal · 04/08/2024 16:45

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Lifeomars · 04/08/2024 16:46

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 04/08/2024 16:11

I’m in Liverpool and one of our libraries has been set on fire. People (citizens and Police) have been attacked. How is that in anyway protecting and fighting for children. And to use the murders and attempted murders of those beautiful little Children and their Teacher as a reason for this thuggery sickeningly disgusting. Perhaps with the money they’re not to to pensions for the WFA they can use it to build a few prisons and throw them (thugs)all in for at least 10 years. Make an example of them.
Also why are they shouting stop the boats. The murder of little Alice, Elsie Dot and Bebe was born in bred in the UK. It’s not nothing to do with any boats. I’m so heartbroken and angry right now.

I cried when I saw what they had done to the library. I am so sorry. I agree with every word of your post. I am in Nottingham and very luckily we have had nothing like this happening and in fact only a few of these morons who rumour has it were bused in, turn up. I live in a really mixed area, it must be so scary being a Muslim. I see that a hotel in Rotherham that houses asylum seekers has been set alight. Hope all responsible are arrested and charged with attempted murder

Fluufer · 04/08/2024 16:46

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What is stopping white working class men from accessing education? Not everything is someone else's fault.

x2boys · 04/08/2024 16:46

C0rdeliaChase · 04/08/2024 16:37

Unless he's from a tiny secluded village it's got sod all to with in some parts they are very traditional and it’s handed down from generation to generation and they’re not very open minded about things.

Liverpool has one of the biggest gay communities in the country. Yes, it's north west not east but we're not that different. Newcastle being similar. And Liverpool is very multicultural, (the area I live in has equal amounts of white, black and Asian people).

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Manchester and Canal Street too
Honestly this thread shows that some southerners ,think the North is a bleak waste ground full of racist thickos
The north y is a big place with many different types of communities we have villages ,towns and cities just like the south.

Georgethecat1 · 04/08/2024 16:47

I have always said the issue with Hull isnt that it’s not a lovely place with some beautiful buildings. It’s the people that let it down. The lack of diversity and open racism drives people away. Anyone I know not from the area will move into East Riding when they have enough money.

Ive been in pubs and had old men say some pretty shocking things to Indian friends. Some friends who aren’t white were told they couldn’t go into a nightclub and we had a lovely Polish colleague leave after her neighbours (multiple neighbours) make comments and threatening behaviour towards her family.

It’s not everyone but I think there is a higher level of racism in the area compared to other cities I have lived in. How that’s fixed I don’t know?

1dayatatime · 04/08/2024 16:47

@SilverCatStripes

"What’s really eye opening on this thread are the posters who absolutely refuse to engage with any discussion or debate about the underlying reasons as to why this has happened, and seem incapable of realising that their closed minded approach is contributing to the problem."

Furthermore if you point this out to them then you too are labelled a racist fascist sympathiser. And so society becomes ever more divided.

MyHonestRoseSeal · 04/08/2024 16:47

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