Southport - reporting restrictions

[mids2019]

So the attacker in Southport was a child (17) so will be not be reported on due to reporting restrictions. Due to proximity of the alleged attacked to adulthood and the severity of the crimes do you think in this case it is in the public interest to release at least some details of the alleged killer? Not releasing details fuels speculation that at a public level may not be helpful in my.opinion.

In addition I would think there may be a high chance the attacker had a severe mental illness so after the Nottingham attacks will the debate about personal responsibility for actions during psychosis be raised again?

I think we're all jumping to it being some kind of MH issue because it's so unfathomable. We think that nobody in their right mind could commit such a heinous act. But maybe he was just bad. Maybe there is no logic or explanation to it other than he did it because he wanted to. Other people have killed children before for no apparent reason. That may be the case here. It's more worrying for people because if we can't identify it, how do we stop it from happening again. But the truth of it is, we can't. There will always be bad people who do evil things just because they want to. We can't "guard" against it.

I hope he doesn't end up in hospital. I hope he gets a whole life order, more than warranted given his crimes.

Even if he is "mentally ill" how could we ever trust him in society again? And I don't really hold with saying that if he is mentally ill, he's not culpable. Those children were the innocent ones here. Three of them will never get to grow up. The rest are likely traumatised for life. He doesn't deserve a second chance, I really don't care if voices in his head told him to do it.

The insanity defence is worse than pleading guilty. These laws were not drafted by modern psychiatry and are seriously out of date. You could be detained forever and ever. Hospital is not like a spa, it’s not a softer option than a prison sentence which usually has a finite term and much of it can be served on licence, out of prison. Hospital is the worst possible outcome for a defendant.

A successful defence of non-insane automatism - not mentally ill but not in control of your actions - would mean no prison or hospital, you could walk free.

There isn't always an obvious trigger. However, in this case there were two clear risk factors:

• Age: 16 - 25 is peak age for first onset of psychosis. This is why there are specialist services for this age group in many mental health Trusts.
• Ethnicity: immigrants and the children of immigrants are as a group at higher risk of psychosis. It is as yet unclear why this is, but statistically it is true and is firmly statistically significant.

It is therefore not an unreasonable hypothesis. There are others: online radicalisation, the dynamics in the family home, cannabis use to name but a few. (Cannabis use is also a risk factor for developing psychosis).

If you look at the prisoner population, especially those prisoners who have committed serious crimes, you will see a far, far higher prevalence of mental illness, learning difficulties and past trauma. As a group, people who commit crimes tend to be damaged. That doesn't mean they should just be patted on the back, but if you want to bring down recidivism you're better off tackling the problems that underpin the behaviour. The UK is bad at this.

Mind, who know a lot about mental health, say that psychosis can be inherited. So there isn't always a trigger.

Well counter terrorism police are involved so I think there's a lot more to it

Did wonder if he was in the care system

So the worthless piece of trash has been named. May he rot in hell.

Are they? Has that been reported in the last hour or so as I haven’t seen it?

Even if he is "mentally ill" how could we ever trust him in society again? And I don't really hold with saying that if he is mentally ill, he's not culpable. Those children were the innocent ones here. Three of them will never get to grow up. The rest are likely traumatised for life. He doesn't deserve a second chance, I really don't care if voices in his head told him to do it.

This.

It doesn’t sound as if you know very much about psychiatric illness at all. What are your qualifications in this field?

Incels are classed as terrorists. If he's ND and a loner and the counter terrorist police are involved it lends credence to him being an incel.

Not necessarily.

They may indeed be looking for signs that he was groomed or radicalised online, but that might well be in order to demonstrate if necessary that there were no signs.

We simply do not know his motivation, and there won't be anything further said until plea hearings and trial

Yep, I agree. 100%

One for anyone with legal knowledge.......

Can a judge impose a while life term on a criminal who perpetrated acts when he was legally a child?

What are the sentencing guidelines for a child that commits murder?

Given the Bulger killers were released on licence after 8 years (I believe) is there any problem with the youth justice system not having the parameters to deal with a crime of such unique depravity?

What can the Home Secretary do? (I suspect she may have to intervene).

The fact that a murder charge has been brought heavily suggest a the CPS thought he was of sound mind when he committed the crimes as they think they can show intent. A murder charge was not brought against the Nottingham knife attacker as he was mentally incapable of intent due to schizophrenia.

It will be interesting to see the plea made by the alleged attacked as I can't see how there can be a feasible defence that would result in the realistic prospect of innocence. On the other hand a lot of people may think a guilty plea should be in no part a reason for reduction in sentence.

I pity the jury who has to go through this if this goes to trial as well as anyone who has to testify reigniting trauma.

Under 18s cannot be given longer sentences than an adult. Murder convictions always have a life sentence, but rarely a whole life term.

Calocane was charged with murder and attempted murder. Manslaughter with diminished responsibility is a plea the defendants can enter when the case reaches trial. Or not guilty by reason of insanity. Or possibly if he is acutely unwell unfitness to plead. It's really impossible to predict if MHN are part of the picture. Likewise the fact he is in youth detention is meaningless.

Only judges can impose whole life terms. The whole life order is only indicated in sch 21 sentencing act for offenders who are 21 and older at the time of their offence. There are fewer than 70 people on whole life orders in England and none were under at the time of their offence.

However, the starting point for murder is still a life sentence, with a starting point of thirty years for adults and twenty for someone under 18. That can be varied up by aggravating factors like multiple victims, sadism, premeditation and down by mitigating factors like dependent vulnerabilities.

It's impossible to predict right now as we know nothing of the defendant. But there are obviously lots of aggravating factors so the starting point will be a v long minimum term. And that only determines when the defendant can apply for parole. IF tried for murder he could be in much longer.

Written on water

Thank you.

I think the problem with a non while life sentence is that people will ask why not? We have had Lucy Letby given such a sentence so it will interesting to see the tariff used by the judge within the parameters of the law.

I wonder if the plaintiff pleads not guilty what the defence can possibly be?

Thanks Bigcoatlady

Comefeomaway

It is is going to be complex.

I think there will be a reaction from some of mental health is promoted as mitigation but possibly there are societal factors here that need exploring.

It could be there are difficulties of engaging with different cultures compounded by mental health porblems. The choir boy angle may suggest a heavily religious household which may have unknown consequences.

One thing that the press have avoided doing is using too many labels such as 'evil' or 'sadistic' and maybe this is due to a greater understanding of the complexities of the human mknd. I don't know.

I think invariably a long sentence will be given but maybe there is a just an element of tragedy all round.

One thing that I do fear is that racists take up this opportunity to justify possibly discriminatory behaviour by the police through excessive use of stop and search on black youth for example.

MH issues, autism, performing arts.
It’s getting more bizarre by the minute.

Perhaps he’s just an awful human being full of misdirected hatred.

I’ve 3 nephews age 40+ with children of all ages living streets away from this area. It’s a really tight community. People know of this person, his family, what they got up to at school and that the police have been onto him a few times. Also, sorry to say, but people in some services, talk.

There is lots of talk about him. They are all saying the same thing. No one has mentioned MH once.

TR had unconditional bail, returned home to Spain and is on holiday with his children - there were no bail restrictions applied which would prevent him from doing so. Which makes your first sentence incorrect and untruthful.

TR had already left the country before rent-a-mob converged on Southport.

plus

Our name is what we are known by : why do you have a problem with this?

also

your ‘tanning salon in Luton’ comment is both insidious and unpleasant.

Presumably since Yaxley Lennon lives in Spain that makes him a migrant and therefore we should all hate him?

He was arrested on Sunday at the Euro tunnel terminal, He was due in court on Monday. He was then released on bail until October.