Page 22 | Southport - why do they keep saying a ‘Taylor Swift themed club’?

lemoniessie · 30/07/2024 19:31

Devonbabs · 30/07/2024 19:29

But the brain isn’t fully developed until mid to late 20s the decision making part is the last part to develop. Are you saying a 23 year old shouldn’t be tried as an adult.

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Around age 27 I think.

User8646382 · 30/07/2024 19:34

CantDealwithChristmas · 30/07/2024 14:26

They WERE tried as adults!! It's a rather well known and controversial decision by the then Home Sec Michael Howard in response to the public outcry.

Ten is the age of criminal responsibility. They were 9.

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They were 10 and a half; 11 when the case went to trial.

They were charged with murder, so the case had to be heard by a jury. There wasn’t the option for it to be heard in a juvenile court.

TickTockTickTok · 30/07/2024 20:04

MaidOfAle · 30/07/2024 18:08

What I was trying to say, and clearly worded very badly, is that this murder isn't an Arab Muslim as the far-right are claim. I'll concede that, without me specifiying the context, it came across with a different unintended meaning.

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But it wasn’t badly worded, it was very clearly worded

perhaps the comments of those that you label as the far right, they might claim were badly worded.

perhaps they would label you as the radical left for claiming …
”Race and religion have nothing to do with this case.”
When you could not possibly know that.

It was like you saying a car had nothing to do with an accident, when all you believed from the information given was that it wasn’t a Ford. Of course without a full history we cannot know.

The truth is it seems unreasonable to censure others we believe are making things up when we are making statements that we cannot know are true.

We know fairly little and no one should be presenting absolute statements about things they cannot possibly know are true. Speculation is bad enough, but with such a shocking incident and with the police saying some things but some thinking they are potentially withholding others (for what might be perceived as political reasons) then it is difficult to avoid.

As just expressed on TV people are frightened, people want answers.

But they need to be the right ones, and perhaps at the end of the day there are none. But targeting little girls and trying to obliterate them with a frenzied knife attack is massively disturbing, especially when not the first recent similar incident.

Sir Keir being heckled at the site.

MaidOfAle · 30/07/2024 20:04

EasternStandard · 30/07/2024 19:23

What are the stats on fatal attacks on multiple children as this must feature quite highly given its horrific nature

That’s why your posts come across as they do

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It seems that annual figures for mass homicide of children aren't reported for England and Wales. This makes sense because events of this type are rare.

Hopefully, it will reassure posters fearing a similar tragedy to know that "It is relatively uncommon for those aged under 16 years to be killed by a stranger, with 4 such offences in the year ending March 2023, similar to previous years".

I'm not sure how to interpret your final paragraph.

spikeandbuffy · 30/07/2024 20:06

Twitter saying it's kicked off in Southport. I bloody said this would happen with the idiots

OnAndOnAndonAgain · 30/07/2024 20:10

The age of criminal responsibility has been 10 since 1963, before that it was 8

Up until 1998 children aged 10-14 were still criminally responsible for their actions but were protected under the principle of doli incapax. This required the prosecution to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the child aged 10-14 knew that what they were doing was seriously wrong. The principle of doli incapax acted as a buffer zone for children between the ages of 10 and 14 and essentially protected them from the criminal justice system for an extra four years.

I think it was due to the murder of James Bulgar that we abolished the doli incapax though

The fact they were tried in public and that the judge lifted reporting restrictions so they were named has been criticised by the European Court of human rights though iirc

Saucery · 30/07/2024 20:22

spikeandbuffy · 30/07/2024 20:06

Twitter saying it's kicked off in Southport. I bloody said this would happen with the idiots

Crowds of men outside a mosque. The thick, racist pieces of shit

That’s what all the blether on social media leads to. Hope the contributors to that are proud of themselves now,

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 30/07/2024 20:24

SandrasNewDo · 30/07/2024 08:35

It’s really bothering me.

Is it because
a) the murder of 2 children and attempted murder and severe injury of 9 others isn’t newsworthy enough without involving Taylor Swift’s name?

b) Taylor Swift needs to suffer some guilt by association in the way Ariana Grande did with the bombing at her concert?

What’s the need or relevance? If it had been a 80’s music dance class would they keep saying that? Why not just say summer dance club and then focus on the children and adults who were hurt or killed - I can’t even imagine the devastation their families and the whole community must be suffering.

Anyone?

Maybe it is because of the huge contrast between the fun, happy innocence of dancing to Taylor Swift’s music and the horror that followed, @SandrasNewDo?

FarmFlowers · 30/07/2024 20:25

The other night in Rochdale, crowds of Muslim men outside a police station. Were they thick racist pieces of shit?

Saucery · 30/07/2024 20:27

FarmFlowers · 30/07/2024 20:25

The other night in Rochdale, crowds of Muslim men outside a police station. Were they thick racist pieces of shit?

No, they were thick rabble-rousing pieces of shit. HTH.

FarmFlowers · 30/07/2024 20:36

No, Not really. Islam isn't a race-tit's made up of all nationalities-so why not just call the crowd outside the Mosque-'thick rabble rousing pieces of shit.' Why call one group racist and the other not?

The men outside Rochdale Police Station were out to make trouble-without knowing the full facts. They did not wait until the whole video had been seen.

The people outside the Mosque in Southport are out to make trouble, without knowing the full facts. They have no idea if the man who committed these murders is Christian, Jewish or Muslim.

The skin colour of both groups should make no difference-they are both groups of people jumping to conclusions that fit their agenda before they have the full facts

MaidOfAle · 30/07/2024 20:42

FarmFlowers · 30/07/2024 20:36

No, Not really. Islam isn't a race-tit's made up of all nationalities-so why not just call the crowd outside the Mosque-'thick rabble rousing pieces of shit.' Why call one group racist and the other not?

The men outside Rochdale Police Station were out to make trouble-without knowing the full facts. They did not wait until the whole video had been seen.

The people outside the Mosque in Southport are out to make trouble, without knowing the full facts. They have no idea if the man who committed these murders is Christian, Jewish or Muslim.

The skin colour of both groups should make no difference-they are both groups of people jumping to conclusions that fit their agenda before they have the full facts

Islam isn't a race-tit's made up of all nationalities

That's why I used the term religio-ethnic. There are many nations with Islam as the majority religion, but none of those nations are majority-white. The reason why religion was added to UK hate crime legislation was because, unable to say "Asian" or "Arabic", the BNP and their ilk resorted to "Muslim" as a proxy.

Rosscameasdoody · 30/07/2024 21:33

Devonbabs · 30/07/2024 15:54

Exactly - the Position here is marriage is legal at 16. British culture would see it at abhorrent for a 10 year old to get married because most right thinking people can see a difference between a prepubescent child and a child over half as old again who has gone through puberty, who has the ability to be independent.

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once more, the legal age of marriage is 18, not 16.

Dylanesque · 30/07/2024 21:38

Rosscameasdoody · 30/07/2024 21:33

once more, the legal age of marriage is 18, not 16.

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Once more, the legal age of marriage is 16 in Scotland. Which is part of the UK

Original poster

SandrasNewDo · 30/07/2024 21:57

KreedKafer · 30/07/2024 10:16

If it had been a 80’s music dance class would they keep saying that?

Yes. Yes, they would.

Journalists are trained to include details that add context to a story. The fact that it was a Taylor Swift-themed dance event adds context - we immediately know from this detail that it was an event aimed primarily at little girls, little girls who just wanted to be part of a huge global phenomenon that's been everywhere this summer.

If the killer had targeted little boys attending a summer football camp sponsored by Manchester United, they would have included that detail too.

These details could, potentially, also tell us something about the killer's motive. We don't know, and neither do the media, but it's a detail worth including because part of reporting the news is giving people the information that's available as we piece together the truth. That detail is part of that truth.

Is it because Taylor Swift needs to suffer some guilt by association in the way Ariana Grande did with the bombing at her concert

Firstly, everyone here in Manchester fucking loves Ariana Grande because she reacted so brilliantly to the Arena bombing. Clearly the event had an effect on her - not least because she was in the bloody building when the bomb went off; she'd only just exited the stage when it happened - but that was not because her name was mentioned in the media.

Secondly, 'Won't someone PLEASE think of Taylor Swift's mental wellbeing?' is really not something that's foremost in my mind when I hear about a mass knife attack on multiple children and adults that's left two dead and many more critical in intensive care, and I think you really need to have a good old think about your priorities.

What a load of bollocks. If it was an 80’s dance class they would quickly have just started calling it a dance class I bet because ‘80s’ wouldn’t catch anyone’s attention.
I like and admire Taylor Swift but I’m not a ‘swiftie’ never seen her live and my thread was not in anyway to do with her feelings at all. I’m not surprised she’s issued a sympathetic statement about it though.
What I mean by Ariana Grande and Taylor Swift being linked to guilt by association is that it just smacks of ‘well this wouldn’t have happened if they hadn’t stuck their heads above the parapet’ - somehow, a male has committed this horrific act but women are part of the headline.

FWIW it’s really depressing that on a women’s forum this thread has descended into racism and scrapping.

I would never EVER want to be part of something which derailed the CPS’s case and the thread I started was not about outing the perpetrator, discussing their race or the age of culpability.

All my thoughts are with the families tonight.

OP posts:

TickTockTickTok · 30/07/2024 22:03

But both these demonstrations are fuelled by far more than the incidents themselves. It runs much deeper, and is disturbing to many.

It is about culture and ideology clashes and control of the narrative IMHO. Hardly surprising if we look at the majority of conflicts around the world driven by power fuelled by exploiting difference.

I think to merely put conflicts down to skin colour is naive. As is suggesting Muslim is just used as a proxy. There is and has been a lot of quite specific issues conflicting beliefs and concerns about freedom of speech.

MaidOfAle · 30/07/2024 23:15

SandrasNewDo · 30/07/2024 21:57

What a load of bollocks. If it was an 80’s dance class they would quickly have just started calling it a dance class I bet because ‘80s’ wouldn’t catch anyone’s attention.
I like and admire Taylor Swift but I’m not a ‘swiftie’ never seen her live and my thread was not in anyway to do with her feelings at all. I’m not surprised she’s issued a sympathetic statement about it though.
What I mean by Ariana Grande and Taylor Swift being linked to guilt by association is that it just smacks of ‘well this wouldn’t have happened if they hadn’t stuck their heads above the parapet’ - somehow, a male has committed this horrific act but women are part of the headline.

FWIW it’s really depressing that on a women’s forum this thread has descended into racism and scrapping.

I would never EVER want to be part of something which derailed the CPS’s case and the thread I started was not about outing the perpetrator, discussing their race or the age of culpability.

All my thoughts are with the families tonight.

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What I mean by Ariana Grande and Taylor Swift being linked to guilt by association is that it just smacks of ‘well this wouldn’t have happened if they hadn’t stuck their heads above the parapet’ - somehow, a male has committed this horrific act but women are part of the headline.

The First Rule Of Misogyny is "Women are responsible for what men do". What you have expressed, this "Taylor made him do it" feeling in the press reporting, is you recognising the First Rule as it applies to this situation.

RedToothBrush · 31/07/2024 02:00

MaidOfAle · 30/07/2024 19:17

The Office for National Statistics aren't politicians. They are scientists.

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I have to say I'd normally agree with this however there is definitely some one high up who is pushing anti-science gubbins at the ons...

Rosscameasdoody · 31/07/2024 04:24

Dylanesque · 30/07/2024 21:38

Once more, the legal age of marriage is 16 in Scotland. Which is part of the UK

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Well you should have made that clear then, The rest of the UK is 18,

CantDealwithChristmas · 31/07/2024 07:52

Rosscameasdoody · 30/07/2024 19:14

And the law was changed as a result of that. The law everywhere else in Europe is that 12 is the age of criminal responsibility. Here it remains at 10. Because Michael Howard decided to try them as adults doesn’t make it right. They were children at the time. Absolutely not defending them in any way before I’m flamed, it was a terrible crime. My point is that you can’t chop and change because of public opinion. The law is the law, and it should apply to everyone regardless of what they are accused of. Anything else risks mob rule.

Edited

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Oh don't get me wrong, I fully agree. It was obvious from the accounts of people who saw them in court that they had no understanding of the proceedings. Plus Thompson kept asking his lawyer 'when will the doctors make little James alive again?' ie his understanding of his crime was limited. So they failed two of the bars for criminal responsibilty right there.

the CPS didn't want to try them as adults. Howard acceded to public outrage.

Anyway, as of late last night the attacker's real name (not the fake Arabic one) and DOB are out online and he turns 18 in a matter of weeks. So we'll know him then although I have no idea whether he'll be deemed fit for a full trial.

CantDealwithChristmas · 31/07/2024 07:53

TickTockTickTok · 30/07/2024 20:04

But it wasn’t badly worded, it was very clearly worded

perhaps the comments of those that you label as the far right, they might claim were badly worded.

perhaps they would label you as the radical left for claiming …
”Race and religion have nothing to do with this case.”
When you could not possibly know that.

It was like you saying a car had nothing to do with an accident, when all you believed from the information given was that it wasn’t a Ford. Of course without a full history we cannot know.

The truth is it seems unreasonable to censure others we believe are making things up when we are making statements that we cannot know are true.

We know fairly little and no one should be presenting absolute statements about things they cannot possibly know are true. Speculation is bad enough, but with such a shocking incident and with the police saying some things but some thinking they are potentially withholding others (for what might be perceived as political reasons) then it is difficult to avoid.

As just expressed on TV people are frightened, people want answers.

But they need to be the right ones, and perhaps at the end of the day there are none. But targeting little girls and trying to obliterate them with a frenzied knife attack is massively disturbing, especially when not the first recent similar incident.

Sir Keir being heckled at the site.

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The residents were shouting 'How many more children, Kier' at him and his close protection officers got him into the car pretty sharpish after that.

pleasehelpwi3 · 31/07/2024 08:20

FarmFlowers · 30/07/2024 20:36

No, Not really. Islam isn't a race-tit's made up of all nationalities-so why not just call the crowd outside the Mosque-'thick rabble rousing pieces of shit.' Why call one group racist and the other not?

The men outside Rochdale Police Station were out to make trouble-without knowing the full facts. They did not wait until the whole video had been seen.

The people outside the Mosque in Southport are out to make trouble, without knowing the full facts. They have no idea if the man who committed these murders is Christian, Jewish or Muslim.

The skin colour of both groups should make no difference-they are both groups of people jumping to conclusions that fit their agenda before they have the full facts

You didn't need to see the whole video though. A police officer shouldn't be stamping on the head of a tasered man lying face down on the floor and then kicking him, regardless of what happened before. Police are trained and legally meant to only use the minimum amount of force required to control a situation. I've heard numerous retired senior officers explain this, more eloquently than I have.
As a teacher, if I tell a pupil to fuck off, it's irrelevant if I've been repeatedly told to fuck off by a child immediately beforehand.

Foggyfield · 31/07/2024 09:11

I'm wondering if this crime will turn out to have a race hate element.

Cattery · 31/07/2024 09:20

pleasehelpwi3 · 31/07/2024 08:20

You didn't need to see the whole video though. A police officer shouldn't be stamping on the head of a tasered man lying face down on the floor and then kicking him, regardless of what happened before. Police are trained and legally meant to only use the minimum amount of force required to control a situation. I've heard numerous retired senior officers explain this, more eloquently than I have.
As a teacher, if I tell a pupil to fuck off, it's irrelevant if I've been repeatedly told to fuck off by a child immediately beforehand.

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At an airport where security is paramount? He was tasered then was attempting to get up. He could have been wearing a suicide belt. The officer needed to use any means possible to keep him on the floor.

Machiavellian · 31/07/2024 09:30

All these posters going on about brain development needs to give their head a wobble. Wrong is wrong and right is right. No civil human commits such a heinous crime and gets to be excused on grounds of brain development otherwise we're basically excusing people. It's pretty morally clear within confines of civilised society that murder is wrong. Crime is wrong. Stop making excuses. God help us if you have children at school.