Do you judge/ pity converts to Islam?

[Candyapplesandhearts]

Firstly I’m a convert to Islam. White European, so more than likely if you saw me you’d assume I was a convert, plus my name would definitely give the game away.

i live in a metropolitan area where converts are yes rare but not too too share whereby it’s shocking.

well keeping this in mind, I bought a block of sessions for a beauty treatment, and the aesthetician was visibly taken back by me firstly, fine it happens because I wasn’t what she was expecting, with my name and I show up in a headscarf.

but the questions, not only were they pretty inappropriate but also steeped in judgment. I was shocked. I could tell that she wasn’t necessarily being malicious or even hateful, but she clearly had a very pre conceived notion about my motivations and my choices. Ie several questions about my husband and how he made me convert, or as she said ‘become Islamic’, lots on clothing and how she often feels sorry for a lot of Muslim women.

truthfully MN, is this a thing? Deep down are these thoughts people have but maybe don’t voice.

in general even at work I do have questions asked but they are more diplomatically phrased- so now I’m wondering am I actually being judged/ pitied?

I would pity anyone who joined any religion, really.

I will preface by saying I have studied various religions and am not against religion, but am very wary of extremism of any kind.

I would wonder why, with free choice to choose, out of all the modern belief systems available, you chose Islam, which

1. In many places has the death penalty for leaving
2. Is the religious and political foundation of many of the most violent and oppressive governments in the world
3. Encourages submission and learning by rote without questioning
4. is the source of a lot of modern antisemitism, as well as disparaging views on non-Muslims and western women

I am also aware that converts to a religion (any religion) can be amongst the most fervent, and that there can be a tendency to go to the more extreme edges.

So I would have a mix of genuine curiousity as to the positives you have found, and a degree of concern as to your vulnerability and motivation. And I would encourage you to always question and to not go off the deep end.

Possibly many people do raise their inner eyebrows at a white woman converting to Islam. I think it's naive to think otherwise.

However, bear in mind that MN probably isn't an objective slice of opinions (I can't tell you an exact demographic but there will be one).

Also people tend to express more extreme views online, because they can.
When I look at my local facebook groups I see this very clearly. The shouty people with strong opinions tend to dominate. People in real life mainly shrug and think the council do OK'ish managing bins and roads etc but they might not say that out loud very vociferously.

People with unpopular views may feel they can't post if the discussion is weighted in one direction. So many variables. A lot of people don't really know much about Islam bar what they see on the news. I would count myself in that camp too, pretty much.

Honestly, I think my inner eyebrows would raise a bit too, but I like to think I'd be aware enough to not make my mind up right away until I knew you better (not up to me to judge you anyway you know what I mean).

In the long term better understanding of Islam will lead to better discussion about various issues around personal faith and faith/democracy/state. I think these are worth thinking about.

But it is not just one example is it?
My own experiences of Islam are multiple: Marrying 14 year old cousins, wives not allowed out without a male, wives not allowed to learn English (as they don't need to), once even had a business that had to deliver signed for packages and Muslim households were infuriating as the women were in but would not open the door because "man"!. The list goes on and on.
Is it all Muslims, of course not, is it a higher ratio than other religions YES. This misogynist religion should NOT be encouraged to migrate here. Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, etc no such problems.
Islam is bad for womens rights.
Even in places like the UAE that people like holidaying too, they claim to have Western like laws protecting women (they do) BUT in the event of say domestic abuse, the Koran trumps the law and men will seldom be punished, instead the women will be.
As women we should be protesting against this religion and not defending it.

You forgot the homophobia. Let's not forget the disparaging views on people being gay.

My daughter converted to Islam about four years ago. She is probably the most intelligent person I know, and is one of the most strong willed and independent people I've ever known, and she made the decision to convert having spent several years researching the main religions and her own beliefs. There is absolutely no way anyone could coerce her or influence her into making such a significant change to her life and she is in no way subservient. She married a Jordanian and was welcomed into his family. There was no expectation that she should have converted to Islam when she got married.

My daughter follows the religion strictly and she has worn a hijab since she converted. She says that she feels liberated wearing it, together with the modest clothing she now wears and not being expected to wear makeup etc. I am not at all religious and find it hard to understand my daughter's beliefs, in exactly the same way as I would not understand it if she had suddenly become a practising Christian, Buddhist, or Jew, but I completely respect her decision and do my best to understand her dietary requirements, when she needs to pray etc.

She and her husband moved to Turkey two years ago, and experienced a huge amount of racism - against her husband because he's an Arab and against her because she's a convert and also British. They moved back to the uk earlier this year, and my son in law is currently splitting his time between London and Turkey whilst his visa is sorted out. We live in a very multicultural part of London but my daughter has experienced a number of incidents of racism, to the point where she has felt unsafe at times. Some of her closest friends are also very unwilling to try to understand her new way of life and seem perplexed thst she no longer wants to go out getting pissed and wearing revealing clothes.

Whilst I don't understand any religion, I would always defend anyone's right to follow a religion and I respect their beliefs, even if I don't agree with them. My daughter and I have discussed her religion many times and at great length. Islam is now a part of her life and I assume always will be so. But what is very obvious to me is that she now has a sense of calmness and contentment which she didn't have before, and she is one of the happiest people I've met, which is a result of both having met her husband and her religion.

I think you are very pleased with yourself that you've converted and want a fight. I mean, my judgement would be fleeting and then I'd get on with my day.

I am Jewish orthodox on all sides of my family. My parents gradually rejected the whole kit and caboodle of barmitvahs, attending synagogue (other than for other family/friends weddings, funerals.), and keeping high days and holidays. Given their time again they’d not have had my DBs circumcised, but at that point didn’t have strength to defy their DPs.

I can’t get behind any organised religion, especially where women are covered in some form or other, segregates men and women, and where taken to extremes, is reductive and limiting. So I’d feel sad at someone converting/reverting to Islam pretty much as I would about someone converting to Judaism.

You are aware that many offenders convert in prison to get protection, slightly better food, have a schedule to exist by, and in some establishments more time out of their cell?

I've had conversations with ex-offenders and senior prison staff about it.

If I know a white Christian lady whose husband is abusive and She thinks their family and her relationship is normal should I assume all white Christian women are abused? No ofc not. I assume she is a victim of abuse, not that her abuse is because of or caused by her white Christianity. Obviously there’s nuance here, but no where in the religion does it say you can’t go out except to Disneyland or McDonalds. Those are not religious choices.

I have no opinion on women converting to any religion, islam included. But I do feel... Maybe not exactly pity, but something close to pity, for women who convert to a religion at the behest of their husbands if that religion puts particular restrictions on women but not men. So for example, I'd feel bad for a woman who converted to a strand of Christianity where her husband makes all the family decisions, and I'd feel bad for a woman who converted to islam if it made her feel she had to cover up against her will. I wouldn't feel sorry for a woman converting to Christianity or Islam if she lives out her religion in very similar ways to her husband, and if everything she did within her religion was her own choice.

Basically, I'm against religions that have different rules for men and women, and I feel bad for the women pressured into taking on a more oppressed or subservient role as a result of converting to a religion like that.

truthfully MN, is this a thing? Deep down are these thoughts people have but maybe don’t voice.

I’m having a bit of trouble believing this is a serious question OP.

Converts to any religion are often judged both by people who have been born and raised in the region, and by those who aren’t.

Are you seriously saying you didn’t know judgment was a thing? 🧐

Do you judge/ pity converts to Islam?

Yes. Especially women, (doesn't matter what colour they are) I wonder why they would do that to themselves. Low self-esteem/respect maybe? But then again, I judge/pity any woman who converts to a religion.

Exactly. The criticism of Christianity never ends. It doesn't bother me.

Why is one religion above criticism?

I didn't mention that because until recently that was common to all 3 Abrahamic religions. And in much of the world is also culturally frowned upon. It's only very recently that Christianity and Judaism have become more accepting.

This.

I would like to understand why women are restricted and need to be covered but men are free to choose what they wear.

Well we all make judgments one way or another but I meant on a more substantial level akin to those on this thread.

i sometimes think in a way it’s nice that women who follow the beliefs of dressing modestly and covering up, are not completely judged on their looks all the time the way we are in the west. Or feel the need to display themselves in an overtly sexual manner the way some women do these days. Having said that I’m not religious at all. I don’t judge people who follow any religion though. Each to their own I say.

I'm not sure Islam is compatible with Western women's lifestyles and freedoms OP.

They aren’t, men aren’t free to wear whatever they want according to the sharia.

they can’t wear anything tight, or anything that exposes the navel to the knee (so they can’t go shirtless at the beach), can’t wear trousers longer than their ankles, can’t wear red, silk or gold. Can’t trim their beard but must their moustache

Most Jewish converts are reform/liberal though..Without the gender separation part. Female rabbis. Gay marriages under the chuppah. Emphasis on ethical eating rather than just kashrut (though many reform Jews follow a variation of kashrut)

It would be different in places like israel (where it seems to be a way to formally recognize children of mixed marriages and soviet Jews as full jewish citizens) but in the uk reform/liberal have more converts because they don't turn away people like the orthodox do. Plus orthodox Judaism requires a potential convert to live with a Jewish family for 6 months and there are practical barriers for most people.. I converted in 2020 pre covid but even pre covid, my rabbi was allowing some people to attend the classes virtually, it probably is the norm now post covid so the number of conversions has exploded. This means the converts dont need to live near a synagogue which for most people means they have to live in a place like London or Manchester or near one of the small Jewish communities

I remember reading a stat saying only 25 people converted to orthodox judaism. For liberal judaism alone in 2020 it was 139!

I dunno the demographics of Muslim converts but I imagine it would be interesting reading.

I've only ever come across a couple of converts (reverts?) and while I don't really understand the decision I wouldn't judge or treat them badly. I'm not religious myself so the same would go for anyone who became religious later in life whether Christian/Jewish/whatever.

What does that even mean?

because it’s very much compatible with my lifestyle and I’m a western woman