Do you judge/ pity converts to Islam?

[Candyapplesandhearts]

Firstly I’m a convert to Islam. White European, so more than likely if you saw me you’d assume I was a convert, plus my name would definitely give the game away.

i live in a metropolitan area where converts are yes rare but not too too share whereby it’s shocking.

well keeping this in mind, I bought a block of sessions for a beauty treatment, and the aesthetician was visibly taken back by me firstly, fine it happens because I wasn’t what she was expecting, with my name and I show up in a headscarf.

but the questions, not only were they pretty inappropriate but also steeped in judgment. I was shocked. I could tell that she wasn’t necessarily being malicious or even hateful, but she clearly had a very pre conceived notion about my motivations and my choices. Ie several questions about my husband and how he made me convert, or as she said ‘become Islamic’, lots on clothing and how she often feels sorry for a lot of Muslim women.

truthfully MN, is this a thing? Deep down are these thoughts people have but maybe don’t voice.

in general even at work I do have questions asked but they are more diplomatically phrased- so now I’m wondering am I actually being judged/ pitied?

Could you explain your objections to Taj Hargey? I've had to google his name, but he just seems to be a liberal leaning Imam?

Is it really hard for people to be respectful to another persons religion whether they believe in it or not? Do you have to be so judgemental and rude because you disagree with Islam?

I'm aware of what I did. I was showing the irony of the OP inadvertently telling us exactly the issue that many people in this country have with Islam.

Not at all. Judging and having opinions on people's choices you disagree with is the epitome of freedom and liberty - civil debate and disagreement come from judgement and strong opinions. We all make personal judgements on all kinds of things. I'm not asking for some legal tribunal to restrict OP from wearing a veil. She asked if people pity and judge her for this choice and I'm giving her my honest opinion.

How do you differentiate between 'disagreement' and 'judgement'? I think they are similar, both involving a person's subjective thoughts on something. OP's feelings are likely to be hurt from both, no? But my judgements don't restrict her from wearing a veil if she so chooses. By posting here, I can assume OP was expecting to hear honesty.

Let’s clear up a few things.
1)terminology. A fatwa is just a religious edict made by a mufti or religious leader, it can’t be a random person. That isn’t a ‘bad’ thing so for instance scholars gave fatwas that ivf is halal and if you’re in the west and Ramadan is long hours you can fast Saudi time.

2. practices that aren’t exclusive to Muslims. FGM, child marriage, honour and shame, superiority of males aka patriarchy, killing of gay people. These are all terrible but these aren’t exclusively Muslim problems. FGM occurs in African Christians too, and Christian majority countries such as Ethiopia. It is a cultural problem, as it is not found all over the Islamic world. It literally has 0 Islamic basis. Again child marriage is abhorrent but not exclusively a Muslim problem, 300,000 girls were legally married in the US between 2000-2018. Honour and shame, again not exclusively a Muslim problem, it’s particularly prevalent in the Indian subcontinent. Patriarchy, well, we live in a patriarchal society here in the UK. Women punished for rape, well subcontinent too, the same rhetoric plays out in the west, a way to blame the woman. Killing gay people again there’s a lot of Christian countries that carry the death penalty for being gay like Uganda, even the Russian anti gay laws encouraged a wave of vigilante anti gay violence.

This is not whataboutery, rather that these things aren’t exclusive Muslim problems. Nor are they found all over the Islamic world or by Muslims living in the west.

but to elucidate more on women punished for rape, this is a huge bug bear of mine and there are revisionist scholars who have argued it is to the classification of rape as a crime. Traditional scholars put it in the same bracket as zina (unlawful sex) so therefore liable for the same punishment but objectively this is false, it should be reclassified as banditry and grave assault aka a violent crime on an innocent individual. To be crystal clear though traditional scholars didn’t equate rape with fornication, as there are fatwas that a woman would be permitted to kill her attacker to prevent rape. It’s the proof of rape that has caused this significant problem. I would argue though this is once again Muslims not Islam that’s the problem.

Christopher Hitchens was very good at being disrespectful of religion but respectful of others as humans, he'd fiercely debate some people and show their arguments little respect if the arguments were weak.

I don't know why disrespect of religion is a human failing, if anything, it's indicative of striving for treating one another based on much more equitable ethical standards like judging people on their behavior, actions, choices, values, not on their identity within a certain group.

Again out of context, because I was saying that’s the conclusions drawn (by people like you) when you actually don’t know much about Islam as a theology, you know what some bonkers Muslims have done, but you don’t know the history (textual and social) of the belief system you vehemently oppose

So you've reported me, but you can't answer me?

I’ve not reported you, so I’m not sure what you said

I reported it actually for being highly offensive and for Islamophobia.

I think judgement in this context implies a negative opinion often associated with a feeling of superiority in one's own opinion. Merely disagreeing doesn't apply the dimension of superiority/inferiority.

I don't believe in Islam, so I would disagree with a Muslim on their belief system but I don't necessarily think that my opinion is better or worse than theirs.

If you'd converted as part of getting married, I'd see it as a social/cultural decision.

If marriage had not prompted the decision, yes, it would make me look at you differently, because "adult converts who are not being pushed by marriage or lifestyle factors" tend to be a bit...unusual. The expression "the zeal of the convert" exists for a reason, and it exists because those who pick a new religion and convert to it for purely personal reasons in adult life are usually Religious with a capital R. I would never ask questions or pry, but would probably shy away from developing a friendship with an adult not-for-marriage-type-reasons religious convert for that reason; I'm not a religious type myself so people with a burning sense of Faith Stuff going on in their heads are not likely to be someone I'd get on with.

It's different when someone has grown up within a religion; such people run the full spectrum to very religious to fairly secular.

Billyballyboo Well said.

and I’m a superhero

yet despite your ‘experience’ you’ve spelt Quran wrong. For a ‘historian’ such as yourself you’d have thought that would have been the basics.

and for that matter what is a ‘highly experienced ex Muslim’?

so you’ve read all the Hadith?! All of them? Somehow I doubt that? And you’ve read the Tafsir of the Quran and then scholarship of it? You’d also need to know Islamic social history from the time of the prophet (pbuh) to now (this includes but is not limited to, the caliphates, fhe split between Shia and Sunni, the Ottoman Empire, the formation of Saudi Arabia and colonialism.) fiqh and the madhabs.

A historian would know that context is key and the above provides it.

What a shame you think this. It may be true in some cases but as for myself, I think I’m reasonably well balanced and not that unusual’. I socialise with a wide range of people from a variety of worldviews. Religion doesn’t dominate our conversations or even come into it that often (unless I am with a group of Muslims for the purpose of learning more about Islam). I think I’m quite lucky to have experienced such a wide range of people during my life time. I am not running around trying to convince everyone of the truth if thats what you think. Im more likely to be cracking jokes with you and complaining about the weather on a day to day level.

I would imagine that Billyballyboo chose to use ‘Koran’ in purpose despite knowing that ‘Qur’an’ is preferred by Muslims. She/He may well be an historian who has read some hadith as well. I’m not sure how speaking to ‘highly’ experienced ex Muslims is helpful unless she also speaks to ‘highly experienced’ Muslims such as imams and sheikhs here, maybe some female scholars, a variety of practising and not so practising Muslims so as to listen to a less skewed range of opinions. Of course speaking to ex Muslims is going to help her/his already formed narrative on Islam!

From what I have seen on videos of him speaking and the odd article I have read containing his thoughts, he seems to be pushing a version of Islam that would be very watered down in generations to come if we were to follow his views. For example, his poo-pooing of the Hadith, his apparent wish to only read the Quran and nothing else as a source of information. Then there are issues such as wanting to ban the face veil (along with all other forms of face mask in public), advocating for female Muslims to be able to marry non Muslims (albeit with a set of conditions). I can see that his views would be appealing to people who have no religion or who arent that bothered either way and while I can listen to some of his views and not disagree with them, I would worry that Muslims would be quite lost if they only followed his advice.

Indeed, you’d have thought a ‘historian’ would know the difference between objective research and confirmation biais.

Gosh @Candyapplesandhearts you certainly have the zeal of a convert. Reminds me of the self-righteous branch of evangelical christians.

I'm just puzzled why you asked the initial question, unless it was to stir up division.

I’m actually not particularly zealous, whilst I do obviously believe what I believe and that is my religion, I don’t much care what anyone else believes or does (as long as it doesn’t impact me) so I’m a live and let live person. I’ve not bestowed the virtues of an Islamic lifestyle onto anyone on the thread, just corrected some rather vile statements

however as you can clearly see from the thread, sadly, a lot of people have said some really Islamophobic (and factually inaccurate) statements on Islam, so yes I’ve corrected those.

as to why I started it, I genuinely thought most people were of a similar live and let live stance and I’m actually quite shocked to see the huge amounts of negative sentiment. I thought in this day and age, whilst there’s obviously some islamaphobes and bigots most, wouldn’t be like that. So I was shocked by my beautifician as I’m shocked and saddened by the opinions on the thread.

Undoubtedly there have been a few phobic posts but overall this thread really isn't phobic. Thinking a religion is ridiculous and stating that when asked does not make one phobic. While it might feel unpleasant when someone criticises your religion, unless there are attempts to stop you practising your religion or judgement/abuse directed towards you specifically because of your religion then it's not phobic. People are allowed to think religion is ridiculous.

@Candyapplesandhearts

Yes well mumsnet wouldn't be my first port of call if I wanted an open minded non- judgemental discussion about religion. Though there is a religion and philosophy area.

Just in case you think that Islam is peculiarly singled out, Christianity also comes in for a high level of intolerance and ridicule, not to say venom at times. I guess if you're secure in your beliefs and lifestyle then you just have to let quite a lot of it wash over you and not take it too personally.

There have been thoughtful and informative contributions in and amongst on this thread.

I'm sorry if you feel that people have ridiculed you in the past, or been intolerant of your views.
That said, as much as you are free and allowed to follow a faith/religion, other people are also allowed to question and criticise faith/religion.
Some christians aren't exactly tolerant of atheists either, in my experience anyway, and tolerance works both ways.

Indeed.
Clearly there were going to be a range of views on this and it's perfectly acceptable to dislike all religion (and thus feel sorry for those involved with it).