Do you judge/ pity converts to Islam?

[Candyapplesandhearts]

Firstly I’m a convert to Islam. White European, so more than likely if you saw me you’d assume I was a convert, plus my name would definitely give the game away.

i live in a metropolitan area where converts are yes rare but not too too share whereby it’s shocking.

well keeping this in mind, I bought a block of sessions for a beauty treatment, and the aesthetician was visibly taken back by me firstly, fine it happens because I wasn’t what she was expecting, with my name and I show up in a headscarf.

but the questions, not only were they pretty inappropriate but also steeped in judgment. I was shocked. I could tell that she wasn’t necessarily being malicious or even hateful, but she clearly had a very pre conceived notion about my motivations and my choices. Ie several questions about my husband and how he made me convert, or as she said ‘become Islamic’, lots on clothing and how she often feels sorry for a lot of Muslim women.

truthfully MN, is this a thing? Deep down are these thoughts people have but maybe don’t voice.

in general even at work I do have questions asked but they are more diplomatically phrased- so now I’m wondering am I actually being judged/ pitied?

Many Muslims tend to live alongside and socialise with other Muslims rather than mix with others in the community. Western values would be free speech, freedom of religion, human rights, equal rights and tolerance.

None of this matters, the second you make yourself known as a visible Muslim you are not integrating, and not holding onto British values. Considering the politicians have never defined these British values, it would be quite hard to know what we should actually be holding on to

I’m really enjoying reading your perspective @Opalfleur2026, thanks for your participation in the thread!

I suppose I could get a Union Jack tattoo or something...

So if they are working 40 hours a week as a doctor/nurse, shopping in the local Sainsburys, their dc go to the local state primary, but socialize in the mosque at the weekend then they are not integrating? If you as a white, christian woman don't regularly socialize with black rastafarians, do you have a problem integrating? Or is it only POC who have the duty to 'act the white man?' That's a genuine question btw, the 'lack of integration' has been a trope that the Tories have tried very hard to demonize Muslims with, in ways that other religions simply haven't been. I don't know of any Muslims who are opposed to free speech, human rights, freedom of religion etc.

I think that is the crux of the conflict between people on this thread and the Muslim reverts

They believe secularism is a good thing. So do I tbh but as someone with dear friends and relatives who adhere to a more orthodox version of religion, I respect their view while being secretly hopeful their religions (or them which would often amount to the same thing) would change with time (and even my orthodox MIL has given me cause for hope).

To many women on this thread (correct me if I am wrong, LGBT pride, feminism are non negotiables. They would therefore find it difficult to agree with women who think otherwise. It would he the same if you were a Mormon trad wife or at least I would like to think so.

LGBTQ pride and feminism can be difficult to define, sometimes. Does LGBTQ pride, for example, have space for the many different opinions regarding sex, gender, the extent to which things are covered in schools? There's a whole board about those things on this site. I've previously been told by some people that there's no space for me in feminism as per their definition because of what I wear - whether I identify as a feminist or not, my definition may vary from another person's.

I too really enjoy your perspective Opal. Yes the crux of it is secularism vs any religious belief. Personally I'm fine with people having issues with me being religious, I believe in free of choice/speech/religion so it doesn't bother me. I think over time the UK will become an increasingly difficult place for those wanting to practise any religion, and I know of christian friends that feel that they are very persecuted as a result of their adherence.

My DH never had a non Jewish friend until he went to university other than one neighbour (catholic). He has never been accused of not integrating.

Even today he predominantly socialises with Jewish people. My MIL has like one non Jewish friend..

I just realised yesterday he doesn't know what shrove Tuesday is. This is a 34 year old British man who is a 4th generation Londoner. I remember when we first moved into our area (Jewish area but a larger non Jewish population and fewer Jewish shops), he was convinced cafes would be open on Christmas day. As they usually are in his very orthodox jewish neighbourhood...

I can only speak from my own experience so bear with me. I've lived in an area which is 50% Muslim for a long time and the area is divided into Muslim and non Muslim areas. There are local schools which are 100% Muslim pupils.The community tend to socialise, marry and mix very much with each other.

Regarding Western values I'm afraid I disagree, blasphemy laws aren't freedom of speech and neither is the inability to speak ill of Islam, homophobia isn't equality and neither is inherent sexism, there's also an inability to convert to other religions - everything Western seems to be haram including feminism.

My humble opinion is: that in the uk this means:

1. Accept your child being gay if he is gay/lesbian

It's mumsnet so this doesn't apply to trans.

1. Don't treat daughters differently to sons
2. Allow daughters to explore sexuality from age 16, she will sleep with boyfriends and have a lot of sex at university
3. Allow daughters to dress as they like with age appropriate guidelines- obviously looking like a bratz doll at 11 not ok, different thing at 21
4. Encourage daughters to pursue careers
5. Encourage daughters to find husband who would co parent and help with housework
6. Expect same from husband
7. Fine to be housewife but it must be 100% your choice

This is the mainstream now so people who deviate from that significantly will probably face some judgment.

I'm sorry to hear that you've been told you can't be a feminist. It's not up to anyone to tell you that you can't be a feminist. There is a problem in feminism with intersectionality. Feminism is very mixed regarding what people believe in re LGBTQ issues. Feminism has traditionally been a big supporter of LGBTQ rights but that has changed in some quarters with Trans rights.

It's very interesting that the government actively promote the seclusion of ultra orthodox Jews in London, and they never get accused of not integrating, it is considered something that is necessary for them, but evil for Muslims (even though the former are much less integrated than the latter). There are things going on in that community that I assume posters on here would have a field day with, such as posters on streets stating that women must walk on one side only, women being forbidden to drive, housing associations only for orthodox jewish people etc etc. This purposeful seclusion costs the government money to help them offset the negative effects (for example oral hygiene of ultra orthodox Jewish children is much poorer than non Jewish counterparts, one of the reasons being they don't want to leave the vicinity to visit the dentist, or go to a non Jewish dentist). The point being that this is not perceived as being problematic by the government, but Muslims not going down to the local pub every weekend is.

Not seeing much there that would be outside what we'd be thinking/expecting, really - pretty mainstream for my group of friends and fellow mums. I'm going to live in a bit of denial about likely uni escapades for a while longer as DC still pre-school, though! Unicorns, monster trucks and dinosaurs for a few more years before we have to start the whole contraception chat.

How is the government encouraging it.

I think they are just not doing anything which isn't the same thing.tbh they are the same in whichever country they are in so it's them not the government in a way. Tbh I think they are very adept at covering themselves.. it's not easy to get the ultra orthodox to do what you want, it is like one of israel's top problems (they even attack soldiers!) There are activists who are lobbying to change it, notably the ex chief rabbi's DIL but if it was easy there wouldn't be activists.

Never heard of this non jewish dentist thing- you can go to any dentist though in jewish areas your dentist is likely to be jewish. My MIL goes to a Jewish GP cos she also wants advice on jewish law in addition to medicine, for some reason the kashrut status of medicines concerns her though tbh all life saving medication is kosher by default.

. My dh went to an ultra orthodox primary school and that was under a labour government. The really religious ones are mainly private schools who I assume would be really hit by VAT now or they have to find more generous donors or go underground.

Islam is such a beautiful and pure religion. As a woman who is Muslim we are not oppressed, far from it. It is usually the ignorant people who have no idea about the religion that come to this conclusion.

But it was YOU that dehumanised her, pitying and feeling sadness for her when you know nothing about her, so who are you to wish for a better life for her. You don’t know her. It’s infantilising which is pretty denigrating. She could be highly qualified and successful in her field and utterly adored by her husband and wears the veil very much against his wishes. All the women I know who wear the face veil do so against the pleas of their husbands.

Pity and sadness and sympathy and wishing a better life for someone are pretty much the opposite of dehumanizing.

I really, really want an answer to how you, who has the freedom not to, can justify wearing a veil when women are imprisoned and being murdered for not wanting this, for seeing the veil as a symbol of their oppression. It seems like very unsisterly, IMO. It seems very anti-feminist. For those reasons, I judge you, not the women who are veiled who have no choice.

They facilitate it by formulating policies that enable it. There was a health policy drafted and implemented for fissure sealant for children in Stamford Hill for example (this is available online, and I don't have a problem with it btw, just drawing parallels with muslims who integrate a lot more but are much more demonized). The court ruling that allowed a housing association to allocate a social housing property to an ultra orthodox family, even though they were not first in line stated that due to their religious need not to drive on shabbat, their need was greater because they are required to attend the synagogue and live amongst other ultra orthodox. AFAIR the woman who took them to court and was first in line was Jewish too, but not ultra orthodox, and the ruling was made because religiously she was not required to do any of the above, whereas the ultra orthodox was. Quite a few of the schools got deemed inadequate due to issues that would very much come under lacking in British values, (censoring the Queen's image, refusing to acknowledge christianity and islam, saying homosexuality was a sin) however they just labelled OFSTED as antisemitic and nothing else happened.

Isn't it a big strange to believe in freedom and liberty if someone is judged for wearing a hijab when they freely choose to, just because some people do not have the freedom to make that choice?

Perhaps the OP staunchly supports the right for an Iranian woman to choose. Many Muslim women do support choice. Some don't. You may not agree with the choice the OP has made but in the interest of civility in our society, is it really necessary to judge her for making it?

Most brits and even regular jewish people don't have a great view of ultra orthodox Jews tbh. They are also not representative of the average jewish person in the uk who is secular.

They also don't accept newcomers easily only jewish people. They live in very few areas..

I don't believe in a monarchy.
I know lots of folk with similar feelings.
So far we've never actually been given a choice.

More telling comments.
Still no real explanation of your choice of words.

Unfortunate that people have expressed valid opinions and questioned indoctrination/grooming?

Have you always been muslim?

I think you were actually one of the main posters who helped to turn it into a backwards and forwards argument actually. You are welcome to be concerned about indoctrination and grooming and whatever else you feel Islam is all about. It is just a shame that as always, a thread on Islam always goes this way. I posted my personal experience after reading a number of posts from people who said they would feel pity because they would assume the person has become Muslim to please a man/get married. I’m not my post was even really noticed due to all the arguments. I am not here to get into such debates, like I say, it is just a shame that the first 10 pages or so were really interesting and then it just went the way it always does.