Do you judge/ pity converts to Islam?

[Candyapplesandhearts]

Firstly I’m a convert to Islam. White European, so more than likely if you saw me you’d assume I was a convert, plus my name would definitely give the game away.

i live in a metropolitan area where converts are yes rare but not too too share whereby it’s shocking.

well keeping this in mind, I bought a block of sessions for a beauty treatment, and the aesthetician was visibly taken back by me firstly, fine it happens because I wasn’t what she was expecting, with my name and I show up in a headscarf.

but the questions, not only were they pretty inappropriate but also steeped in judgment. I was shocked. I could tell that she wasn’t necessarily being malicious or even hateful, but she clearly had a very pre conceived notion about my motivations and my choices. Ie several questions about my husband and how he made me convert, or as she said ‘become Islamic’, lots on clothing and how she often feels sorry for a lot of Muslim women.

truthfully MN, is this a thing? Deep down are these thoughts people have but maybe don’t voice.

in general even at work I do have questions asked but they are more diplomatically phrased- so now I’m wondering am I actually being judged/ pitied?

You had no need to even use those 'examples' though. 🫣🫣🫣

But it was YOU that dehumanised her, pitying and feeling sadness for her when you know nothing about her, so who are you to wish for a better life for her. You don’t know her. It’s infantilising which is pretty denigrating. She could be highly qualified and successful in her field and utterly adored by her husband and wears the veil very much against his wishes. All the women I know who wear the face veil do so against the pleas of their husbands.

What counts as liberal in Islam?

For Jews and Christianity would say its whether you have female clergy or pro lgbt etc.

For Jewish would also be how welcoming you are to interfaith couples. Judaism has reform/liberal judaism- pro lgbt, female clergy and welcoming to Non Jewish partners (one guy I met at shul has a wife who is a female imam)..masorti is also pretty inclusive though more traditional.

Would consider unitarians and Quakers to be liberal, Anglicans to a certain extent as well!

These are all pretty well known movements with significant number of followers. Do you think this would ever develop in Islam?

But it was a counter to the poster saying how deeply sorry she felt for that woman just flipping it for arguments sake. This is getting ridiculous now.

for the record women should be free to dress how they chose without judgement.

It’s a pretty broad spectrum, there are lqbtq imams but they are definitely a minority.

theres strong feminist movement led by the likes of Amina wudud and have a lot of western academic weight behind them

😴😴😴

so clever well done 👍🏻

There aren't formalized branches of Islam in the way that there is in Judaism, so there is nothing formally known as liberal Islam. There are Muslims who are liberal, but their practices (or lack of) will not be recognized by that majority, such as the gay imam in Paris, female imams and so on. (Although I think many branches of Judaism also don't recognize the more liberal either?). The Ahmadiyyas that you described as liberal are not even recognized as Muslim by most, because they believe in subsequent living prophets, and believe that Prophet Muhammad was the final one is a tenet of faith.

Someone upthread asked me why people may start/follow radical beliefs, that aren't even from Islamic teachings. It could be lack of knowledge, wanting to interpret things in their own way (when they have no knowledge to do so), wanting to control. This certainly isn't unique to muslims, it happens in every religion, but muslims are under the gaze to a much greater extent.

OP, what is the point of all these arguments you keep spewing out? You asked the question 'Honestly - do you judge/pity coverts to Islam'?

The overwhelming response from the vast majority of posters has been 'Yes. Deeply'.

Some have given measured and articulate reasons, some have just given their own views. And you keep arguing back. You're not going to convince a single poster that they are mistaken. You asked for honest opinions and seem to think that everyone is utterly wrong. What was the point of asking? You're not achieving anything at all. I'll be honest - every single thing you've posted has made you sound more brainwashed in my opinion.

That's my opinion. I don't expect you to care. But I'm confused as to why you keep posting. You asked for opinions, and you are converting no one to your cause.

I agree with this. I am very much live and let live as I said in previous posts, but OP seems angry that other people have different opinions. Not everyone will agree that it’s a good idea to convert to Islam, and some people don’t like religion at all. Surely everyone knows that?

obviously I do think it’s wrong, how could i not?

the points that are objectively false or that are basically anti Muslim hatred I have gone back on and likewise those who have misinterpreted what I said.

its really sad that a lot of the ‘pity’ and judgment is pretty much bigotry

Why did you not continue with your Christian faith?

Nor do you have to, but I am going to point out holes in arguments or examples of bigotry or correct those who have wilfully misinterpreted what I said

Simply put, I did not believe in it

Fair enough

But it isn't for you to convince others of your righteousness. Faith is personal and no one is denying you the freedom to practice it. Islam doesn't tend to gel with a modern secular society and many women don't like the way women are treated in Islam. However, if you want to follow that path, that's your choice. You will encounter judgement as part of that journey.

Straw man. I’ve not attempted to convert you to Islam or tell you it’s the right religion, or even a good religion, or even that God is real. You’re free to make your own judgement but what I have done is correct the super problematic and daily mail adjacent claim that ‘Islam doesn’t gel with modern secular society’. Those are two different things babe

There's no need to be so defensive, I'm not being rude to you.

No one here really cares about you being a Muslim. You asked if people would judge or pity you and most people said yes.

In Islamic countries, women are treated appallingly - given few rights or freedom. On the whole, Muslims appear unwilling to integrate and don't seem to care much for modern Western values. There seems to be a culture of misogyny and homophobia and it doesn't come across as very progressive.

If you want to align yourself with that, that's up to you. Many here don't understand why you would choose to do that but luckily have the freedom to choose. I wouldn't bother trying to correct 'Daily Mail' attitudes, you're swimming upstream and you're not going to convince anyone bar the converted.

Ultra orthodox rabbis would not recognize reform but it is much less adversarial than it used to be and when there are times of strife, we are one jewish people.

Victoria starmer belongs to a liberal synagogue but she was widely reported in the Jewish press as Jewish etc.

I am not sure if they are liberal but they were chosen by my synagogue at one of our services to speak so i thought they must be similar etc.

If most Muslims do not recognize female imams and gay people then with time, wouldn't their beliefs be at odds with secular society forever. For example in orthodox judaism even the chief rabbi has called for a need to recognize that orthodox jewish schools have a duty of care towards their LGBT children. People in the orthodox community have even said we are 10 years away from female clergy being mainstream (there are orthodox female 'rabba' now).. so even in the orthodox community there is change (and their views would become closer to secular people) though I suspect it would take forever for the ultra orthodox to change (if ever). Ultra orthodox are maybe 14% of the uk British jewish population though have a high birth rate.

https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/read-the-chief-rabbis-groundbreaking-message-to-orthodox-schools-on-lgbt-pupils-gyzp75ps

On the whole, Muslims appear unwilling to integrate and don't seem to care much for modern Western values

Can you clarify this point please? What does integrate mean and what are western values? Do you realize that a huge body of NHS staff are muslim? And many of them are even women too.... The lack of integration has always been a Tory accusation, yet there has never been any solid evidence to quantify this.

There is a lot of diversity within Islam - multiple schools of study, different branches, political movements, local variations, etc. As mosques tend to serve anyone in an area rather than being by school or branch, you can find people from across that range of perspectives in a lot of mosques. There isn't necessarily the same separation of denominations as might be found when people are looking for a church to attend.

In terms of female clergy, we don't really have clergy, per se. Any woman can lead a group of women in prayer (not a group of men though), any woman can educate anyone (male or female) about faith, etc. Imams, Alimahs, etc are members of the community who have the knowledge and skills to educate and provide guidance, usually as a result of years of study. Some of the most highly respected scholars in my area are women.

There are LGBTQ-friendly mosques, LGBTQ scholars, etc. There is a lack of representation nationally in terms of scholars and people in leadership positions, though. I know people who identify as LGBTQ who attend my local mosques and education centres, and as far as I'm aware, they've been welcomed.

As far as inter-faith marriage is concerned, similar to some Christian denominations, DH and I were asked if we were both Muslim, but it wouldn't have made a difference to whether an imam would have married us. It was less stringent than what several Christian friends have encountered with regards inter-faith or inter-denomination marriages; just a verbal question (although tbf the imam and alimah involved already knew both of us, just as individuals rather than a couple).

If most Muslims do not recognize female imams and gay people then with time, wouldn't their beliefs be at odds with secular society forever. For example in orthodox judaism even the chief rabbi has called for a need to recognize that orthodox jewish schools have a duty of care towards their LGBT children

Muslims believe the Quran is the guide until the end of times, and therefore the tenets of Islam will not change as a result of changing times. In an increasing secular (and mad) society this of course means that it will become harder. I will hasten to add that it isn't the case that homosexuality is not recognized, as it is mentioned in the Quran about the people of Lot being the first sodomites, however that does not mean that the recognition means acceptance. Someone might come to a mosque for example and say they are gay and bring their gay partner. No one will throw him out or be bad to them, but it's quite unlikely that they will be congratulated. Equally all children must be given a duty of care in schools, so a gay child is not going to be kicked out of a Muslim school, but again I doubt they will be celebrating Pride or anything.

It is unfortunate that much of the latter part of this thread has been filled up with back and forth arguments between a handful of people. It was so interesting for me (as someone who became Muslim many years ago) to hear the thoughts of posters answering the question in hand but as always, it has gone completely off track.

What am I meant to integrate with, I wonder? Not sure I can get more integrated than born here, educated here, 20 years of employment here (with over 10 in the public sector)...

Integration means being like white British people and lifestyles being very similar. Not looking 'poor'

I am not white but I
(a) go to pubs
(b) don't wear any special clothing
(c) would probably allow my daughter to marry outside her religion if she wants and to date
(d) support lgbt rights and gender equality and feminism (though many white British men hate those concepts and no one gives them a hard time)

Admittedly a lot of religious people from other religions wouldn't pass either. But they are smaller in number than Muslims so fly under the radar. You get a lot less flak for being religious if you are white that is the key.

I think the key though is economic prosperity. Average incomes for brits of Pakistani and Bangladeshi heritage are still lower for many reasons. Jewish people were given a much harder time when they were living in tower hamlets.