Do you judge/ pity converts to Islam?

[Candyapplesandhearts]

Firstly I’m a convert to Islam. White European, so more than likely if you saw me you’d assume I was a convert, plus my name would definitely give the game away.

i live in a metropolitan area where converts are yes rare but not too too share whereby it’s shocking.

well keeping this in mind, I bought a block of sessions for a beauty treatment, and the aesthetician was visibly taken back by me firstly, fine it happens because I wasn’t what she was expecting, with my name and I show up in a headscarf.

but the questions, not only were they pretty inappropriate but also steeped in judgment. I was shocked. I could tell that she wasn’t necessarily being malicious or even hateful, but she clearly had a very pre conceived notion about my motivations and my choices. Ie several questions about my husband and how he made me convert, or as she said ‘become Islamic’, lots on clothing and how she often feels sorry for a lot of Muslim women.

truthfully MN, is this a thing? Deep down are these thoughts people have but maybe don’t voice.

in general even at work I do have questions asked but they are more diplomatically phrased- so now I’m wondering am I actually being judged/ pitied?

So are you more 'culturally' jewish as opposed to following religious teaching?

Oh dark’ reading a comprehension isn’t your strong suit is it. Bless

They're interesting stories written by men. There might be some value in some of it but it's not 'divine'.

So cherry picking the bits you like/suit you?

Again, that comment is very telling. 🫣

No.

I feel like many religious folk actually do this tbh, which is fine if you just see the religious text essentially as a book of stories/anecdotes and not any 'divine' word.

I wasn't born jewish so it isn't my culture.

My denomination is liberal Judaism where the religious teaching is that belief in God is not a prerequisite only a desire to engage in Jewish learning and texts and to challenge the teachings if they are not suitable for our contemporary sensibilities. Each individual is encouraged to make their own decisions within the Jewish framework..
.
I value truth over tradition, sincerity in observance over conformity and human needs above legal technicalities.

For example while it is traditionally considered a Jewish norm to be a zionist, my belief in the sanctity of all human life means I no longer consider myself one though my heart is still with the Jewish people and I lean heavily on Jewish teachings re humanity (our commandment to repair the world) to make my assessment of the current situation

My understanding was always that a belief in a god was central to judaism tbh. I'm not really sure why anyone would follow jewish texts and not also the jewish god.
Each to their own, I guess.

Hopefully it’s telling of my frustration in poster wilfully misinterpreting what I said and implying I look down my nose as non Muslim women

https://reformjudaism.org/blog/do-you-have-believe-god-be-jew

It is probably central to orthodox judaism but they are not the only form of Judaism..

From a reform rabbi. He is a clergy member and doesn't believe in God. I think that i am fine not believing in God lol.

'The fact is, most modern liberal Jews today don’t rationally accept the notion of such a God, especially given the fact that all around us innocent people do suffer and the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good God of tradition either ignores them or doesn’t exist.
When people tell me that they don’t believe in God – either because they have seen no empirical evidence that God exists or because they can’t rationally accept the God of the Bible and of the medieval rabbis – I understand completely. I don’t believe in that God either.
We live in a vastly different world from that of our ancestors, whose ideas of God evolved from the social models that surrounded them.'

I believe spiritual searchers can all draw inspiration from both the lessons of modernity and the mystical tradition of Judaism, which speaks about God as an inner spark, not in terms of thunderbolts.

Instead of asking, “Do you believe in God?” let us ask ourselves, “How can I experience myself as a spiritual being?”

No, that's not why that or the previous comment was telling. 🫣

Thank for posting all the info, it might help someone. I'm not really that interested in the details tbh. Each to their own.

Not quite the gotcha moment you think it was!

but then I’ll just say to you just as telling as your comment that doesn’t see Muslim women as human was

To be fair to OP, the comments she's being pulled up on are a staple on AIBU , the feminist board and even style and beauty

There's constant, cyclical discussion on here about dress, fashion, the male gaze and skimpy outfits with many bemoaning the current trends, mainly because they'd prefer to be more covered up.

She didn't exactly pull them out of a hat. They're part of the "vernacular" and are considered problematic (especially page 3 girls) .

Post October 7, there was a dialogue between my synagogue with what I understand to be a liberal Muslim community. I don't know much about liberal Islam but I guess this is probably the closest to it we can find in London.

Ahmadiyya Muslim Community : https://www.alislam.org/

Perhaps PP would be interested

Eh?

It's fine to dress how you choose.
It's not fine to denigrate others for how they choose to dress.
The issue with all clothing choices is knowing whether it is actually a real choice for the wearer or not, or has somehow been imposed by others (often men).

It's not fine to denigrate others for how they choose to dress.

It goes both ways though doesn't it? Especially if (you believe) the women involved had no choice.

Wearing full muslim garb does not strip a woman of her humanity or make her look less human.

It's back to the question of what choice actually is. It's not really choice if you're constantly told about the apparent negative effects of not dressing in a very covered manner. I worked with a Muslim lady who wore veils in a variety of colours - she was following a religion she was brought up in but also had freedom in the way she expressed her commitment to her religion.

Yes exactly!

this!

but you were denigrating a veiled woman. You have no idea about this specific woman and if it was her choice, and it likely was, yet the poster you were agreeing with was saying she didn’t even look human and blended into a seat. That’s denigrating her.

conversely no one has denigrated any woman for what she may or may not wear. For the last time I used that an example of a problematic rhetoric also put into women about how they wear

Hmmm, they are to mainstream Islam what lds are to Christianity.

But there are quite a few liberal Muslim groups, sufis tend to be and whilst not liberal in many ways (specifically on dress) lot of salafi mosques are huge on interfaith dialogue and social issues. like wiise with many ‘central’ mosques

I was agreeing that some styles of dress can make women almost 'fade away', nothing more! You actually made derogatory comments in response to that pp.

but you were denigrating a veiled woman.

I took that description to come from a place of pity for the woman and anger at a religion that would create dehumanization. Women who make a critique on a completely veiled women are more likely to feel sadness out of sympathy for the women, it's wishing you could make her life better, it's not denigration.

No I didn’t, I said maybe the veiled woman might take pity on women who wear less clothes, and then gave some HYPOTHETICAL and EQUALLY PROBLEMATIC examples, and then clearly said that both instances of projecting ones on thoughts onto someone you don’t know are deeply problematic