Do you judge/ pity converts to Islam?

[Candyapplesandhearts]

Firstly I’m a convert to Islam. White European, so more than likely if you saw me you’d assume I was a convert, plus my name would definitely give the game away.

i live in a metropolitan area where converts are yes rare but not too too share whereby it’s shocking.

well keeping this in mind, I bought a block of sessions for a beauty treatment, and the aesthetician was visibly taken back by me firstly, fine it happens because I wasn’t what she was expecting, with my name and I show up in a headscarf.

but the questions, not only were they pretty inappropriate but also steeped in judgment. I was shocked. I could tell that she wasn’t necessarily being malicious or even hateful, but she clearly had a very pre conceived notion about my motivations and my choices. Ie several questions about my husband and how he made me convert, or as she said ‘become Islamic’, lots on clothing and how she often feels sorry for a lot of Muslim women.

truthfully MN, is this a thing? Deep down are these thoughts people have but maybe don’t voice.

in general even at work I do have questions asked but they are more diplomatically phrased- so now I’m wondering am I actually being judged/ pitied?

Actually it isn't. Islam is very different in that it was created by a warlord (Mohammed) and has tribalism and conquest at the heart of it. In contrast, Christianity was a small, persecuted sect for a long time who preached let's be nice to each other. Islam considers itself the biggest and best of the three Abrahamic religions because it came last. The speed at which it swept across the middle east and north Africa in the 7th and 8th centuries was incredible and violent. If you think this is the religion of peace, study its history and read its texts. I have done both.

I've never met any Druids, knowingly at least, so cannot comment. Certainly the more common religions all groom and indoctrinate.

It's interesting that it is said that Islam was born out of Ishmael Abraham's son with Haggar

OP you've written that you grew up in a Saudi fishing village, but also that you're a white Westerner.

How did you end up spending your childhood in rural Saudi Arabia? And what religion have you converted from? Was your family able to practice any religion other than Islam in Saudi?

It is not just adult women making choices of their own. That is something I fully support.

some religious sects impose those choices on children. That can be in the form of clothing choices that are different for boys and girls. That can be in educational opportunities that can make it next to impossible for a young adult to actually have the ability to pursue certain careers.

how many parents are letting their children make free choices about religion? When that religion treats men and women differently, that is especially egregious

as an atheist, we have worked very hard to make sure our dd knows that her beliefs are her own choice and she doesn’t have to agree with us. We let her know what we believe and we have taught her about other religions and make it clear we would help her learn more. We also let her know we would facilitate her attendance at any religious service she wanted to try.

my own experience with religious parents and my friends experience with religious parents was not the same. Religion was law and it must be followed. Non-compliance was punished.

Was sat recently in an airport, across from a muslim couple. Her head to toe in black, a slit for her to see out of. As I looked around I realised, as I picked up on other people around, she was practically invisible. Only for I knew she was sitting there, she just blended in with the black seating. To me it shows she is thought of as nothing. Not to be seen or heard. A possession, a thing.

I have zero clue why any woman would voluntarily be a Muslim.

Could you explain why these people are not following Islam (in your opinion)?. Because I must say that if this is the case, there seem to be an awful lot of people in an awful lot of countries getting their religion wrong.

And I don't seem to hear much condemnation from other Muslims tbh (I'm sure some do, but it doesn't seem to be very common).

And I don't seem to hear much condemnation from other Muslims tbh (I'm sure some do, but it doesn't seem to be very common).

Then you're not looking/hearing hard enough.

Out of curiosity, do you demand people from other religions to speak out/condemn(loudly enough for you to hear) when others of that religion commit violent acts?

that’s your opinion on what constitutes indoctrination it’s not facts on grooming. Opinions aren’t facts

Yep. Can't think of anything worse, to be honest.

i lived there for some time, not all my life.

My family was like any other white British family, varying degrees of Christian. I was baptised as a child and went to Sunday school.

back when I was in Saudi you weren’t allowed to celebrate Christmas or anything like that ‘out in society’ (not in the bridgerton sense) but compounds there was drinking and Christmas and all that stuff, but this was early 00s

But that’s your projecting your opinion onto her

Worse than what?

Worse than what

It's pretty obvious she means converting to Islam a.k.a. The thread title.

I'm not expert in Islam but my understanding is that it is very similar to Christianity: be good and upstanding, treat others with respect, be humble, modest and fair and love God. These are universal values of human kind.

I remember my DM telling me that when she and DF decided not to give my DBs barmitzvahs, that my DGM asked how will they ever know right from wrong? My DM said because they already know what is right and wrong. And two more honest, caring, ethical men you could not meet. None of us had had any religious instruction, but live by the values our DPs modelled - ie treat others as you would like to be treated, be honest, live within your means, don’t cheat etc. You don’t need a higher being and a written code of religious instruction to be a decent human.

It feels that religion takes on the roles of social work, community care, counselling and provides an inbuilt friendship group and a refuge for those who feel on the outskirts of society. I just don’t think these things have to be created and structured and around religion and done in the name of a God.

Well, in that case, she doesn't have to.

She was responding to the thread (?)

It's factual information.

I agree with pp tbh.

I don't think so either, but I think the characterisation that Islam is a necessarily in conflict with the West and a bad mad and dangerous religion is probably unfair. A good Muslim should behave similarly to a good Christian as Islam is built on the same texts and traditions.

At a high non-expert level, I can see the appeal - why tie yourself in knots regarding the Holy Trinity when you can just get rid of it and make Jesus another messenger?

The conflict we see I think seems to have more to do with culture, history and power than the core beliefs of Islam.

are you aware that you stating ‘that’s a fact’ doesn’t actually make it so.

because if you’re saying people are indoctrinated into religion, as a general lose concept because it’s a belief system, then you can say the same about anything, capitalism, secularism, feminism, individualism. So it’s a reductionist argument

But you agreeing that someone is just an object (someone you’ve never seen or met) is problematic because PP didn’t get up and make conversation with that woman, she knew nothing about her she just projected her own logic onto her. Perhaps the veiled woman might think similar things about you? Just an object for male consumption, goes swimming in glorified underwear etc - both scenarios are problematic as they involve projecting your own feelings and narrative onto someone you’ve never even engaged with

One of the problems with a woman completely covered is the fact you can't communicate with her. It's difficult to perceive her humanity.

I saw interviews with some Saudi men and they said that like their expensive cars and other objects, they didn't want other men to look at them, so they kept them covered up.

When you see women in Afghanistan for example, covered head to toe, they don't look human. It's horrifying and to compare them to someone wearing swimwear is a bit strange.

Are you aware that ignoring facts doesn't make them not facts?

I'm not going to pretend I'm a professor of Islamic studies but even a cursory glance at the Wikipedia page on the spread of Islam suggests it's not as simple as "conversion by the sword".

I find it interesting how people in power use religion as a means of control populations throughout history, but I don't necessary think that Islam is inherently more problematic than Christianity. A person could convert to Christianity and they could become a mild mannered Church of England adherent or a tub thumping nutter - same religion, different outcome.

Distinguishing 20th century Political Islam from how Islam has been practised in a variety of ways across the world for centuries would make for a more nuanced debate. I know perfectly normal Muslims doing perfectly normal things and "Muslims" who are just a bunch of dumb angry young men one step from a referral to Prevent. I just see them as puppets of middle eastern power games who seem to be unable to answer basic questions about their purported religion.

The conflict in the West feels more about culture and history rather than theology to me. Islam comes in many flavours and I prefer to keep an open mind as I continue to learn about it.