Do you judge/ pity converts to Islam?

[Candyapplesandhearts]

Firstly I’m a convert to Islam. White European, so more than likely if you saw me you’d assume I was a convert, plus my name would definitely give the game away.

i live in a metropolitan area where converts are yes rare but not too too share whereby it’s shocking.

well keeping this in mind, I bought a block of sessions for a beauty treatment, and the aesthetician was visibly taken back by me firstly, fine it happens because I wasn’t what she was expecting, with my name and I show up in a headscarf.

but the questions, not only were they pretty inappropriate but also steeped in judgment. I was shocked. I could tell that she wasn’t necessarily being malicious or even hateful, but she clearly had a very pre conceived notion about my motivations and my choices. Ie several questions about my husband and how he made me convert, or as she said ‘become Islamic’, lots on clothing and how she often feels sorry for a lot of Muslim women.

truthfully MN, is this a thing? Deep down are these thoughts people have but maybe don’t voice.

in general even at work I do have questions asked but they are more diplomatically phrased- so now I’m wondering am I actually being judged/ pitied?

They can't be slotted neatly into a box. Am sure it's the same for Muslim women

Absolutely this @Opalfleur2026 and strangely when you are a white woman who has chosen to convert, it makes it even harder. I'm a solicitor by profession, white, an English name and then when people see me for the first time there's this automatic barrier that goes up, they feel wary/uneasy and yes, like your SIL it really makes me think the UK isn't the place for me. Equally when I go somewhere for the first time where people don't know my name and they see me (eg at a hospital appointment) there is an automatic assumption that I'm an asylum seeker with no English and doctors have literally started slagging me off in front of my face

Regarding 'modest clothing' many women who go through this journey talk about the feeling of liberation where you aren't being looked at as a sexual object, and how men in particular really give them a level of respect/decency that they didn't have before. I had ginger hair in my youth and for me putting on the hijab had a very strange calming effect, as no one ever made fun of my hair again, it was something I experienced on a daily basis as a teen and I used to dread walking past boys in particular 😭

My MIL's only social interaction outside her synagogue is her one child still living at home (who has significant mental health problems and stays in her room) and dh and I. It's not really enough so it's great her synagogue provides her with that.

She is self employed. She does go to the gym. But generally the low income suffer a lot from social poverty and religion does provide an outlet for that

@convertrevert I remember an occasion I walked in to a new clinic and people immediately asked the man I was with if 'his wife' needed an interpreter. I was the consultant and he was my trainee.

This

I am glad she has an outlet.
My point really was that there are other options.
My other point was that this is how many religions ensnare folk.

So their 'liberation' is essentially based on how men see them?
Having to hide things shouldn't have to be the way we react to name calling though, at a personal and societal level! I bet your ginger hair is gorgeous, hidden or not though!

Can you explain how come places like Egypt have such high levels of sexual harassment and rape when women dress 'modestly'?

I get the feeling of liberation, and frankly it's one of the huge benefits of being over fifty. But I don't agree that hiding behind a hijab is the answer. Tackling male entitlement and street harassment is the answer. Bringing up better men is the answer. Eradicating misogyny and sexual objectification of women is the answer. Of course that's an incredibly tall order but going backwards into an even more regressive patriarchal model is definitely not the answer.

A guess the question is what's indecent to show an arm, shoulder, neck wouldn't be indecent to most. Should we be looking at why men are judged to have the inability to hold themselves to decent standards to the extent that women feel the need to live covered completely to feel safe or liberated from unwanted attention. Do countries where this is the norm have more issues with attacks on women who are less covered because they are seen as wanting the attention? To me it seems to be throwing back the blame onto women as men are seen as unable to control themselves and property must be guarded. But then as I believe all religious texts are written by men to their advantage and to fit the norms and acceptability of the times written maybe that's just me.

But I see that as victim blaming it's her fault she dressed like that it's what men do they can't help it.....and that's why I feel it's stepping back to women being locked up chaperoned etc. we shouldn't feel the need to hide to be safe.

I agree.

It's akin to young women walking home at night 'asking for it'. Surely the onus is on the depraved rapists? But it their elders are saying 'she should be covered up or else she's not modest' 🤦🏻‍♀️

That gives them motivation.

Ironically it turns out a woman is likely to be raped whatever she wears or wherever she is, most likely in a family home.

If.

This thread has really given me a chance to think about this. I was raised in a strictly Catholic country and to this day don't know any practising Muslims. I've met many customers at work but only know one lapsed Muslim so yes I know nothing about the religion or culture. I do however know what it's like to grow up in an oppressive religious culture rife with the misogyny that seems to accompany most religions. I also have experienced a more relaxed laissez faire approach to religion. Unlike many of my friends who detest Catholicism now, i think organised religion can have a place in modern society and can be rewarding and empowering, we just haven't gotten it right yet.

I admit OP my thoughts about converts historically would be sceptical and I'd consider the possibility of a coercive relationship. However in recent years i have opened mind a bit, in particular I think Sinead O'Connor spoke very positively about converting to Islam and gave me pause for thought. She was a deeply religious woman who believed in organised religion but was badly let down by Catholicism.

Sinead O' Connor was off her head on substances for years.

But generally the low income suffer a lot from social poverty and religion does provide an outlet for that

I hadn't thought of this before, but now you mention it this is very true. When |I read the social class threads on MN I genuinely don't get the so called divisions, but then I need to remember that I mostly socialize with other Muslims. In the mosque, in one line you can have 20 women, perhaps no two are from the same nationality, and no one can tell who is the consultant plastic surgeon and who is a cleaner. Everyone mixes with everyone else, so I suppose there is something very cohesive and unifying about that. And it just happens organically, there's no plan to "ensnare" anyone as a pp suggested .

I won't reply individually as it will take up too much thread space, but re the feeling of liberation. Many women say that they realized that subconsciously they were seeking some sort of validation in the way that they dressed, and it was only after they put hijab on (and that in itself is quite a spectrum) they realized that men gave them more respect than before, wouldn't attempt to flirt, would speak much more politely to them than before etc. Of course you get groups of young men (football top wearers seems to be a theme) who think it's very funny to shout things to Muslim women in the street, "show us your knickers" and so on, so in many ways you can't win.

I had personal interaction with her post her conversion through different groups, and although I would say she still had quite significant MH issues, Islam brought her great peace and she was able to reconcile some of the very traumatic events that had occurred to her. May she rest in peace.

@convertrevert if you're going to mention my comment and do rolly eyes then at least have the courtesy to mention my name.
As it is, you might not be setting out to enslave but that doesn't mean that's not what religion can and does do to many. Women from a variety of backgrounds can be enslaved. 😔

And on that note I would say that quite a number of women who have really struggled with MH are converts and they say that it has really helped them.

Was it not really just her coming to peace with herself, and happening to read some interesting techniques which helped her psychologically? Hurt people often seek healing, religious texts often help them to that in the same way any book might.

I didn't not mention your name on purpose, there were to many posts to scroll through, but yes I think your comment about ensnaring is rather ridiculous. What benefit would there be in that? ETA that I don't consider Islam to be a religion that is particularly proselytizing, and desires to have control over the people, or is particularly concerned about having high numbers of congregants. From what I know of orthodox Judaism there is much greater control of the people, in Islam we don't have a hierarchy that you have to seek opinion from, or someone that can oust you from a community. There might be small fringe groups that do this, but they certainly aren't considered to be mainstream Muslims.

What is it that's actually helping them though?
Religion itself or the self- love, self-reflection and support which often comes hand in hand with religion - all of which we should be encouraging/offering as a caring society, regardless of religion. People often 'find' religion at vulnerable times in their lives.

My comment is based on reality.
I've seen it happen.
Many religious are instructed to find more converts and prey on the vulnerable.
That's ensnaring.

We should be offering but sadly don't most of the time. Our sense of community is so lacking. I can totally understand why people who are vulnerable are drawn to religion. Much like the way older people see the end of their life looming and suddenly become religious. I have no spiritual faith, I just can't find it and I am often envious of the solace religious people have. But I'm also envious of the sense of community and belonging that comes with organised religion, I wish we could have that without the controlling rules. As a society we haven't found the right balance yet.

A few consultant psychiatrists in our community have spoken about the decline in mental health since the West has become more secular. I think there are studies that correlates spirituality and religious beliefs with good mental health. Islam is a fairly routine based religion, prayer 5 times a day, at set times and that is probably good for people who need structure and discipline in their lives. Some people really 'need' rules but don't have the self discipline to do it themselves, so adherence to a religion that prescribes this is good for them. It's interesting that many people who are born in Muslim households can struggle with this, whereas those who convert say it is something they enjoy.