Do you judge/ pity converts to Islam?

[Candyapplesandhearts]

Firstly I’m a convert to Islam. White European, so more than likely if you saw me you’d assume I was a convert, plus my name would definitely give the game away.

i live in a metropolitan area where converts are yes rare but not too too share whereby it’s shocking.

well keeping this in mind, I bought a block of sessions for a beauty treatment, and the aesthetician was visibly taken back by me firstly, fine it happens because I wasn’t what she was expecting, with my name and I show up in a headscarf.

but the questions, not only were they pretty inappropriate but also steeped in judgment. I was shocked. I could tell that she wasn’t necessarily being malicious or even hateful, but she clearly had a very pre conceived notion about my motivations and my choices. Ie several questions about my husband and how he made me convert, or as she said ‘become Islamic’, lots on clothing and how she often feels sorry for a lot of Muslim women.

truthfully MN, is this a thing? Deep down are these thoughts people have but maybe don’t voice.

in general even at work I do have questions asked but they are more diplomatically phrased- so now I’m wondering am I actually being judged/ pitied?

Opal I can understand your feelings I think. But definitely members of any minority group who feels beleaguered, unwanted and are subject to hateful abuse, are way more likely to cling even more strongly to their faith, their communities and feel more defensive. I have a love/hate relationship with my religion after last October. I’ve no faith to lose, but feel I need to defend anyone who has and who wants to visibly Jewish. This is confusing as in this thread I’ve explained that I do pity Muslim women and Jewish women who are in a patriarchal, misogynistic religion and under pressure to cover themselves to keep their beauty for their husbands and away from the male gaze and all their wicked, lustful thoughts.

Many people might wonder why someone would choose to follow the teachings of a slave owner.

I know many orthodox jewish women who cover their hair but are strong in their own way- they have their own careers and their own views. A quirk of ultra orthodox judaism is that women are often the breadwinners as it is considered ideal for men to pray for a living- hence why my DH was given no primary English or maths education but his sister got the full education (at the sister school).

They can't be slotted neatly into a box. Am sure it's the same for Muslim women.

Feminism doesn't need to look the same. It doesn't need to be the 'version' where women are not married but in civil partnerships, where the children have double barreled surnames, where men proclaim that they are fine with their wives being strippers if they want to (my DH got a lot of flak as a postgraduate when he said at a student gathering that he wouldn't be happy if his future wife decided to be a stripper, he thinks that despite being a Jewish atheist he is always going to be more conservative on account of his background). Feminism is about choice, and if a woman chooses to be religious and to adhere to a certain dress code why should that disqualify her.

We should be happy there are more feminists not less. And if it is taboo for a Muslim to be a feminist then we should be redefining islam to accommodate that. We shouldn't be forcing women to choose between their religion and feminism because that would mean they give up on feminism and then who do you think has more children. The feminist or the religious woman?

The numbers decide the outcome often. It's why the majority of the world still isn't atheist. Atheists are only significant in a few countries and those countries have low birth rates.

"Women dressing modestly "is something to be revered? Through which lens are you viewing this? A man's?

i didn’t say it was to be “revered” .But people have to wear clothes and women get judged regardless of what we wear. I’m even being labelled as a “man” for commenting on it.

@PluckyThing how do you view it then ? Would it be better if no one wore clothes at all?

@PluckyThing "Women dressing modestly "is something to be revered? Through which lens are you viewing this? A man's?"

What's wrong with women dressing modestly? Should women subject themselves to the sexual desires of a man by dressing indecently?

Women and girls should wear whatever they want and if men can't control their sexual desires, then they should be locked up.

Women really are their own worst enemies.

Wearing modest clothing or a burqa/ niqab is no more empowering or feminist than wearing revealling clothing- both are designed around the needs/ wants of men in the prevailing culture. Nothing good about it.

Don't lie to yourself that modest dress is for the woman's benefit, it's for men so they can't look at you and to keep their desires in check. Women are subjecting themselves to the desires of men by covering up also.

Rather than framing judgements around what men might want, and judging each other for wearing too many/too few/too tight/too loose/not the right colour or style clothes, we should (I think) support each other's rights to make our own choices, based on whatever we want to base those on. People will make different choices and that's ok. What works for me might not work for someone else, and that's fine.

What's wrong with women dressing modestly? Should women subject themselves to the sexual desires of a man by dressing indecently?

What the actual fuck is this comment. Victim blaming or what. Take a look at 'slut walks' there's women wearing the outfits they were raped in, with signs saying was I asking for it, and many were totally covered.
And also on the flip side, I've been to beach parties in Ibiza where every girl is in a bikini and guess what the men all managed to keep their hands to themselves! In fact, in places like that people are so used to seeing the semi naked body that it ceases to become taboo.

Exactly 💯

And women are also submitting themselves to the desires of men by covering up - so no one but their owner husband can see then and to control the desires of other men.

Modest dress is also designed about the needs of men in the prevailing culture.

Am not keen on modest dressing. Also not keen on porn culture and the increasing sexualisation of young girls. However, I feel like I can figure this out without guidance from a book.

Yes, all this stuff about modest dress for women is placing responsibility for men's desires on women, rather than on the men themselves. Women are also made responsible for family 'honour' if they transgress behaviour codes in any way. The whole system is a way of controlling and oppressing women in the family and society, and women are taught to call it 'freedom'.

This may all seem okay for individual women until it isn't. Until their husband is abusive, or she's raped by another man. Until she's fed up with doing all the childcare and domestic work and wants a different life. Until she wants to leave the marriage but her husband's family won't let her take the children.

But hey, if that happens to anyone, that's just people not practising their religion 'correctly'. There's always that get-out clause and we're all supposed to ignore the ways religion actually plays out in society.

What delphinium 20 said

I became Muslim over two decades ago. I did it of my own accord. When I first started looking into Islam, I think I had only ever come across one other person that I knew was Muslim - a boy I was at school with for a couple of years. I don’t recall having any religious conversations with him but I do remember him for his attitude to life (in a good way). I didn’t come from a religious family. Quite the opposite. ‘You live, you die, and that’s the end of it.’ I did have questions and was always interested in finding out more about religion and the wider world from a young age that noone around me was interested in or could answer. I looked at lots of religions and worldviews as a teenager (obviously not in a hugely in depth way at that age) and then for whatever reason, Islam was one of the last I looked into for a good year or more before deciding it was for me.
It has been interesting to read this thread (a shame that as always, some have just to come derail things). There are certainly a number of misconceptions and I am not surprised. It is unfortunate that a number of Muslims are lead by culture rather than religion or mix the two. I have lived in areas populated mainly by Muslims who pretty much all come from the same country, same socio-economic background etc and at times, I found their attitudes to be exasperating but when I look back, I see it was because they were not well informed/misinformed on Islam. I always question and discuss and reflect on aspects of Islam that I am interested in learning more about (we never stop learning). It is interesting that lots of people here feel pity for those of us who have chosen Islam. I understand why you feel this way based on anecdotal evidence you have come across or perhaps you have had unfortunate dealings with Muslims along the way. I sometimes wonder how life would be if I had not become Muslim or had left after some time but I do not believe that life would have been better or more fulfilling as a non Muslim. Of course, I don’t have a crystal ball to know that. Maybe I’d be sitting in the garden of a big detached house with someone dropping my ironing off to me right now, who knows! But I am happy with my decision. I could go on more about my choices regarding dress, my job, my attitude to others around me but I will leave it there. Happy sunny Sunday everyone!

I think I've not phrased my comment well and I wasn't trying to victim blame at all. Of course women shouldn't be blamed for men's inability to control themselves.

People are allowed to make their own choices in what they wear and if that's modest clothing then that's their right. There's nothing wrong with it at all. If women want to wear revealing clothes that's their right as well.

All I was trying to say there's nothing wrong with a woman's choice of clothing and the last part of my post wasn't rightly worded.

Those who've been groomed into religion don't realise they've been groomed into religion until it's too late. I speak from experience.
It also frustrates me that people spend (waste) so much time on following their religion when they could be doing much more useful/purposeful things (for themselves and society as a whole).

Plenty of people wasting time . Luke influencers for example. Or mindlessly scrolling on social media for hours on end. Or living up to whatever "ideal" is promoted atm either in looks,lifestyle, home decor etc.

Like chasing a materialistic world?

I didn't say there weren't other ways of wasting time, however religious practice is often seen as a profitable way to spend time when really it isn't.

You realise that 'chasing a materialistic world' and religion are not the only too options, right?

The term 'modest' dressing is also troubling imho.
Who defines what is 'modest'?
How is a woman's clothing in any way related to her character or behaviour?
#stoptryingtocontrolwomen

And why do these debates about how men dress not exist?

Edit - men define what is modest of course.

Indeed.
It's troubling that lots of women think it's their choice but they're actually following instructions written by men.
Clothes should be chosen because we enjoy them and/or because they have a practical purpose, not because of enforced rules.