Do you judge/ pity converts to Islam?

[Candyapplesandhearts]

Firstly I’m a convert to Islam. White European, so more than likely if you saw me you’d assume I was a convert, plus my name would definitely give the game away.

i live in a metropolitan area where converts are yes rare but not too too share whereby it’s shocking.

well keeping this in mind, I bought a block of sessions for a beauty treatment, and the aesthetician was visibly taken back by me firstly, fine it happens because I wasn’t what she was expecting, with my name and I show up in a headscarf.

but the questions, not only were they pretty inappropriate but also steeped in judgment. I was shocked. I could tell that she wasn’t necessarily being malicious or even hateful, but she clearly had a very pre conceived notion about my motivations and my choices. Ie several questions about my husband and how he made me convert, or as she said ‘become Islamic’, lots on clothing and how she often feels sorry for a lot of Muslim women.

truthfully MN, is this a thing? Deep down are these thoughts people have but maybe don’t voice.

in general even at work I do have questions asked but they are more diplomatically phrased- so now I’m wondering am I actually being judged/ pitied?

'Display themselves' is ridiculously judgemental, misogynistic language.

If you're going to use it, at least own it otherwise you look pretty daft.

It's because there is perceived shame in the female form, female sexuality and an idea of coverture. I agree that there is too much pressure on women to look a certain way, to look youthful, to have the right body shape and to look attractive.

I don't judge women who get fillers and lip injections, because I understand that it mainly comes from pressure to conform to unattainable beauty standards.

Yes, I think you're no better than a traitor. Wake up!

you can throw around words like “daft” all you want. I have made my point clear . I am still not sure exactly what your point is in this argument.

pahahahahaha!

today my friend, you’re the most ridiculous person on the internet. That’s saying something, well done!

how on earth is it akin to treason?

what have you been smoking?

Ironically the people who judge Muslim women and see them as oppressed are actually encouraging them to take on more intense religious practices.

When people feel their faith is under threat that is what they do. If they feel judged that's what they do..

If you truly feel islam is a threat to British values the most sensible thing would be to embrace all Muslims (including the converts). Invite them to all your events and make sure they are catered for re halal food..as they gradually gain more non Muslim friends, they would ease up on their religious practice as it would be hard not to if that is their social circle..their views may also change. Gradually this may pave the way for the whole religion to resemble something that is closer to your own values.

If they feel excluded then they would just become more intense and withdraw. They may mix within their own circles and consume more stuff put put there by wahabi Islamic preachers (not good).

Wow. Traitor of what? The King and country? God(the specifically white bearded one)? Bacon?

My point is and always has been, that you're claiming it's nice for women to not be judged, while you yourself are judging them.

i sometimes think in a way it’s nice that women who follow the beliefs of dressing modestly and covering up, are not completely judged on their looks all the time the way we are in the west.

And in the same post...

Or feel the need to display themselves in an overtly sexual manner the way some women do these days.

And there's my point right there.

Is that clear enough? Because I really can't think of more simple language to use here.

😂😂😂. Well I suppose that's one insult that hasn't been aimed at my daughter!

Name changed, but I converted to Islam as a mid teen. I was raised in a church going family, culturally christian, but not overly religious. I'm from a very small, white parochial village so this was a massive shock. I didn't initially wear hijab or plan to, but did and have done since I was 17. I got married, had children, they are all now graduates or still at university.
I'm heavily involved in the mosque, and more women than ever now come, saying that they want to convert. Islam is the world's fastest growing religion, and about 80% of converts are women.

That's very interesting, why do you think that is?

Yes, I admit it. I recklessly betrayed bacon. And pork sausages. Oh, the humanity.

The 'race traitor', 'blood traitor' accusations do come up more often than you might hope. Quite often the next step is death threats or even violence, depending upon what people think should be 'done' with 'traitors'.

I am an atheist and I'm saddened by the rise of Islam in the UK, because I felt that the secular society had triumphed and the official state religion of Christianity no longer had any say in public life.

Although Islam was in the UK as far back as the 19th century it had no real say until about 35-40 years ago. Now Islam is growing in this country and we're constantly having a debate about how Islamic morals might clash with British concepts of free speech and expression.

Despite the fact that the religion to which you have converted is near the top of the list of things I wish would magically disappear, I wouldn't treat you any differently and your beautician was opinionated and rude. I practice my values which are tolerance and letting people live their own life without any judgement from me.

Are you now back peddling because you are calling Islamophobia to anyone who disagrees with your choice of religion but don't want to be called out on your blatant racist assumption that anyone who disagrees must be a white feminist? How insulting to any BAME member or any Muslim woman who might even consider you are appropriating their religion for MN points.

N.B. Still don't care about my religion but pretty hypocritical of you.

@WhateverMate I am owning it. Women do “display themselves”. Not judging because I did it myself to an extent in my youth, wearing revealing clothes etc. going out and constantly judged about being perceived as pretty, thin etc. I know men have some pressure but not to the same extent. The point I’m making is that I wish society didn’t pressure women to do so. The pressure definitely exists. I feel in recent years this pressure is even worse for young women. In some ways I feel that modestly isn’t a bad thing. That is my point . Sorry.

But we’re having that debate because of media sensationalism and this sort of enemy within narrative that see so much about western Muslims.

but the thing is, Islam doesn’t clash with free speech, ‘to you your beliefs and to me mine’ is a central tenet of Islam. Likewise, is he who mocks your religion, don’t sit with them. And clemency and not wanting for someone else what you wouldn’t want for yourself and being brothers and sister in humanity.

That is the mistake believed by many atheists. Religion would never go away. If it's not Islam it's something else.

The problem is you cannot allow the dominant stream to be a misogynistic ones like in america where evangelical Christianity has a say in women's bodies.you don't do that by telling religious people they are stupid though..that will just make them more religious.

There needs to be a centrist force within every religion that is supported by general society so that they dominate the debate not just the hardliners.if it's just atheist and ultra religious people the latter would win because they outbreed everyone.

@Scirocco I'm sorry it happened to you and for being so flippant. It's bloody bonkers!

There is. It’s the same!

What in the inane drivel are you on about?

there are blatant islamaphobic examples on this thread, in fact I’d go further and say it’s anti Muslim hatred.

i defined what white feminism is. You can be a white secular woman and be critical of white feminism as lacking intersectionality and obscuring marginal voices (often bame but also people of faith, disabilities etc)

but i am a Muslim woman? So I can I be appropriating it for mumsnet points? Does MN give out points for being Muslim? Must’ve missed that memo, reading this thread it would be the other way around, you get them docked.

Islam isn’t an ethnospecific religion, it’s for humanity

I disagree because I've lived in two countries where Islam is the state religion.

"To you your beliefs and to me mine" - perhaps. But you try voicing or acting on those beliefs ...

In Qatar and Saudi Arabia, you can get in trouble for taking a drink of water in public during Ramadan, even if not Muslim. "To you your beliefs and to me mine", are you sure?

I don't think you have really experienced the way that your chosen religion actually operates and how society is structured when it's in a dominant position. But that would be the case for many Muslims in the UK.

Good luck to you in your sincere and naive belief that it's all lovely and positive. I genuinely mean that, because I do practice tolerance.

But the thing is that if there is a cartoon mocking the prophet, some Muslims would be very angry. Even so angry there may be violence. Not representative of all Muslims obviously.

There isn't really an equivalent in Judaism or Christianity. A cartoon of Moses wouldn't be blasphemous.

I think that is the conflict; islam needs to find a way of reconciling itself with western values which prize even offensive free speech.

We do have subsets within Christianity and judaism who do not support liberal values. My DH was born in London and went to a primary school which taught no English or maths only torah. They break the law flagrantly and do not care. It is an open secret. He is fond of saying he had a worse primary education than any Muslim child in this country (his secondary education was at a mainstream orthodox jewish school and he went to law school and most of his classmates went to RG universities so huge differences in the same religion)

however these sects are small and keep to themselves and the media don't know the true reality.. they also don't tend to read mainstream media so they are also not offended as a result.

Plenty of that happening in Saudi and Dubai under the burqa.

I feel sorry for anyone brain washed into religion. Whichever “god” you believe in. Idc for it. Its plain weird. Church of the flying spaghetti monster says it all

How patronising. I’ve lived in Saudi too, but just because a Muslim country operates in that way doesn’t mean that it’s objectively ‘right’ i.e. in the spirit of Islam for instance the women driving nonsense.

I’m not a fan of whataboutery but that’s like saying a redstate in America is representative of Christianity. I can see how you’d made that assumption though, the Saudi state does claim to be a central authority on Islam with Mecca and medina, but under the ottomans, life in Muslim majority countries was very different. Pretty sure the legacy of colonialism has something to do with the state of the Muslim world too; but let’s not knock on that door

im pretty confident I’ve been to more Muslim majority countries than most after being raised in part in Saudi ( in a conservative fishing village too)