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I don’t understand the Charlotte Dujardin furore….

283 replies

VivaLaSpag · 24/07/2024 09:32

For transparency, I know absolutely nothing about horses but have seen this all blow up so am trying to understand the context and concern. In no way am I saying what she has done is right.

My question is, aren’t horses whipped to the finish line in horse races? If this is a routine practice then why is there such concern about what Dujardin has done?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
TheMightyWanderer · 24/07/2024 12:55

Good questions OP! I’m an equestrian and grew up idolising CDJ, and I’m so disappointed and upset to see her treat a horse this way, but I understand that to a non-equestrian it surely doesn’t look any worse than what happens in racing.

So to address the whipping issue first. In racing, they use padded batons and have a strict limit on how many times they can make contact with the horse before the jockey will face consequences like being banned or suspended. Most of the time the jockeys are basically waving the whips around in the air. You’ll see similar sorts of whips used in other jumping sports too — the cross country phase of eventing, showjumping, etc, and again their use is heavily monitored in competition.

In the video of CDJ, she’s using a lunging whip, which has a long “stick” bit and an even longer string/rope off the end. They’re designed to be used when “lunging”, which is when the handler is standing in the center of a circle with the horse moving around them. Basically you’re supposed to use whips like these by giving them a little wiggle on the ground behind and away from the horse in addition to voice commands to make the horse move a little faster. The string part will move and make the horse move away from it. It should never ever make contact with the horse under any circumstances.

For reference, there’s another type of whip called a schooling whip, which is thin and fairly long and usually has a very small bit of string at the end. These are designed to be used while riding, and basically to give the horse a little tickle behind your leg to get them to move off a little faster if they’re ignoring you squeezing with your lower leg. (This is really simplified but should give you an overview).

So the reason this is all a big drama is that CDJ was always respected for being kind to her horses, for loving them, and for reaching the very top without resorting to some of the cruel practices that you do (sadly) see in dressage and other equestrian sports. She was supposed to be one of the good ones. So to see her following a horse around an arena continuously whipping it with a lunge whip to the point of the horse clearly being distressed and scared, and her apparently just going about her usual business, is a huge problem for a sport that is already under scrutiny for the unscrupulous actions of a few really nasty types. It’s heartbreaking to see a horse in pain and fear, and it’s heartbreaking to get a peek behind the curtain at the practices of someone who was heralded as being the kind who puts her horses before her sport and who is/was held on a pedestal by so many equestrians.

It sadly brings all of equestrianism into a really bad light. Dressage is supposed to be about the partnership between horse and rider — about their bond and connection and harmony. Unfortunately that “harmony” can be faked through fear and aggression, and now someone we all thought wouldn’t resort to such tactics has been shown to do exactly that. Most equestrians I know (myself included) would die for their horses, and it’s a real blow to see one of our best known representatives acting like this with apparently not a care in the world.

Hope this helps clarify the situation for you!

Snippit · 24/07/2024 13:05

VivaLaSpag · 24/07/2024 09:50

Ah ok I didn’t know that-thanks for the info. I haven’t seen the video and tbh it hadn’t crossed my mind that there are different whips. I just thought a whip is a whip!

She lost her temper, I’ve seen it at stable yards, brattish behaviour! The horse put little bucks in, which could have been dangerous for the rider, she could have been thrown off. If I’d done that to my horse, which I never did as it’s bloody painful and cruel she would definitely have bucked the rider off!

what baffles me is this video was made years ago, why produce it now? They’ve had ages to do something about it? 🤷‍♀️

Toastandmarmaladeisdelish · 24/07/2024 13:05

atticstage · 24/07/2024 12:52

I'm not sure the person(s) laughing are necessarily the person filming or even watching.

If the mic is picking up Dujardin's voice from the far end of the arena then it's also going to pick up other voices in the vicinity who may not be involved.

At the end of the longer clip you can hear women's voices chatting about something completely irrelevant. (Middle lane hoggers or something along those lines?) They don't particularly sound like they're paying attention to what's happening in the arena.

Like you wouldn't notice a shocking great crack of a whip 24 times???!!!!

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Lalalacrosse · 24/07/2024 13:07

CountFucula · 24/07/2024 09:40

It’s almost like horses would rather be running free than forced to get their hair plaited and do weird fucking dances.

That’s the most concise way I’ve heard it expressed yet. And entirely correct.

Toastandmarmaladeisdelish · 24/07/2024 13:07

Snippit · 24/07/2024 13:05

She lost her temper, I’ve seen it at stable yards, brattish behaviour! The horse put little bucks in, which could have been dangerous for the rider, she could have been thrown off. If I’d done that to my horse, which I never did as it’s bloody painful and cruel she would definitely have bucked the rider off!

what baffles me is this video was made years ago, why produce it now? They’ve had ages to do something about it? 🤷‍♀️

Jesus Christ, the horse bucks because he's been whipped! Read the numerous posts about why the length of time and what the hell has that got to do with it anyway??

DizzyBumble · 24/07/2024 13:08

so disappointed in this, I really thought CDJ & Carl Hester were the new breed of dressage trainers who treated their horses well & didn't use any of the cruel methods a lot of dressage riders use/have used - eg rollkur & the very sad story of Totilas

VivaLaSpag · 24/07/2024 13:10

TheMightyWanderer · 24/07/2024 12:55

Good questions OP! I’m an equestrian and grew up idolising CDJ, and I’m so disappointed and upset to see her treat a horse this way, but I understand that to a non-equestrian it surely doesn’t look any worse than what happens in racing.

So to address the whipping issue first. In racing, they use padded batons and have a strict limit on how many times they can make contact with the horse before the jockey will face consequences like being banned or suspended. Most of the time the jockeys are basically waving the whips around in the air. You’ll see similar sorts of whips used in other jumping sports too — the cross country phase of eventing, showjumping, etc, and again their use is heavily monitored in competition.

In the video of CDJ, she’s using a lunging whip, which has a long “stick” bit and an even longer string/rope off the end. They’re designed to be used when “lunging”, which is when the handler is standing in the center of a circle with the horse moving around them. Basically you’re supposed to use whips like these by giving them a little wiggle on the ground behind and away from the horse in addition to voice commands to make the horse move a little faster. The string part will move and make the horse move away from it. It should never ever make contact with the horse under any circumstances.

For reference, there’s another type of whip called a schooling whip, which is thin and fairly long and usually has a very small bit of string at the end. These are designed to be used while riding, and basically to give the horse a little tickle behind your leg to get them to move off a little faster if they’re ignoring you squeezing with your lower leg. (This is really simplified but should give you an overview).

So the reason this is all a big drama is that CDJ was always respected for being kind to her horses, for loving them, and for reaching the very top without resorting to some of the cruel practices that you do (sadly) see in dressage and other equestrian sports. She was supposed to be one of the good ones. So to see her following a horse around an arena continuously whipping it with a lunge whip to the point of the horse clearly being distressed and scared, and her apparently just going about her usual business, is a huge problem for a sport that is already under scrutiny for the unscrupulous actions of a few really nasty types. It’s heartbreaking to see a horse in pain and fear, and it’s heartbreaking to get a peek behind the curtain at the practices of someone who was heralded as being the kind who puts her horses before her sport and who is/was held on a pedestal by so many equestrians.

It sadly brings all of equestrianism into a really bad light. Dressage is supposed to be about the partnership between horse and rider — about their bond and connection and harmony. Unfortunately that “harmony” can be faked through fear and aggression, and now someone we all thought wouldn’t resort to such tactics has been shown to do exactly that. Most equestrians I know (myself included) would die for their horses, and it’s a real blow to see one of our best known representatives acting like this with apparently not a care in the world.

Hope this helps clarify the situation for you!

Edited

Thank you for this-great response! And yes it really does clarify as I had no idea about how different whips were used. Also I hadn’t appreciated CDJ’s reputation within the equestrian community so this must have come as such a shock to everyone.
If this is ‘normal’ for the likes of CDJ then what else goes on??

OP posts:
Elliania · 24/07/2024 13:11

There's also the fact of WHERE she hit the horse as opposed to where the jockeys hit the horse.

A jockey trying to get a horse to keep galloping in a sprint finish of a race will do a combination of flicking the whip which makes the horse think there's something behind it and run away from it and using the whip on the horses hindquarters. The hindquarters, especially on a racehorse, are well padded with muscle and therefore the impact of the whip (which another poster explained is padded and quite flexible) will be felt less.

CDJ appears to hit the horse on the legs which have very little in the way of padding and I don't believe the area was covered by any leg gear. This is going to be a lot more painful than a quick smack on the rump - especially as she did it repeatedly.

outdamnedspots · 24/07/2024 13:17

politicalintrigue · 24/07/2024 09:35

who is she?

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

What's the point of this post?

atticstage · 24/07/2024 13:17

Toastandmarmaladeisdelish · 24/07/2024 13:05

Like you wouldn't notice a shocking great crack of a whip 24 times???!!!!

I didn't say that. I said that nobody can be sure that the person heard laughing was laughing at what's in the video.

Don't make shit up.

twistyizzy · 24/07/2024 13:17

VivaLaSpag · 24/07/2024 13:10

Thank you for this-great response! And yes it really does clarify as I had no idea about how different whips were used. Also I hadn’t appreciated CDJ’s reputation within the equestrian community so this must have come as such a shock to everyone.
If this is ‘normal’ for the likes of CDJ then what else goes on??

Lots goes on; rollkur, bleeding mouths due to hard hands, bleeding sides due to spurs, whip marks. That's across dressage and showjumping.
In endurance (mainly from middle Eastern countries) horses are pushed to exhaustion.
In racing horses are backed and ridden between ages 1-2 years, snap their bones in races but carry on running.
Every horse sport has a small, but often influential, core who abuse horses. These are often top level riders and trainers and then the practices go down the food chain to grass roots so are normalised.
However you can also say that horses stabled with only small amounts of individual turnout is also abuse, as is obese showing ponies. As is the overbreeding of poor quality horses who are abandoned in fields etc.

Money is the driver to all of this, and why so much abuse is overlooked.

Toastandmarmaladeisdelish · 24/07/2024 13:24

atticstage · 24/07/2024 13:17

I didn't say that. I said that nobody can be sure that the person heard laughing was laughing at what's in the video.

Don't make shit up.

She's literally videoing the abuse and laughing simultaneously, stop being an apologist for her disgusting behaviour

anotherside · 24/07/2024 13:32

Poor horse, but compared to the misery we subject other equally intelligent mammals to - pigs, cows etc - it just amounts to a slap on the wrist surely.

atticstage · 24/07/2024 13:34

This reply has been deleted

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Toastandmarmaladeisdelish · 24/07/2024 13:41

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Abuse apologist right here on show to the world

lawnseed · 24/07/2024 13:47

AndYesTheWeeDonkeys · 24/07/2024 09:42

How on earth are you managing to post here when you have no access to the Internet?

🤔

It's called chatting. In the chat section. In a chat forum. Questions are permitted in such places.

AutumnalLeaves38 · 24/07/2024 13:51

MrsAvocet · 24/07/2024 12:22

If the person filming really really honestly cared about these terrible "training methods" - no matter their age - they should have sought advice about the release of it sooner.
That's easy to say but probably not that easy to do. A teenager blowing the whistle on one of the top riders in the world is a pretty scary prospect for the young person. I don't know anything about horse riding but I do know that the toxic environment in many other sports makes it very difficult for young people and even adults to speak up about abuse - look at the relatively recent exposés in gymnastics, cycling and ballet for example.
Power imbalance makes it very hard to speak up. There are endless examples in all aspects of life where you might say "why didn't s/he just tell someone" but it really isn't that easy.
I suspect the timing isn't coincidental, but not some kind of conspiracy either. The lawyer handling the case says that the whistle-blower has been emboldened by recent other cases and I would think also probably by their own increased maturity. And the proximity of the Olympics may well be a factor. If someone has been living with this for 4 years and knew that the spotlight was about to be on the abuser again, that she'd be receiving medals, likely to become Britain's most decorated female Olympian of all time and be giving more interviews like one I saw the other night saying how wonderful her horses are, then that might have been enough to finally trigger the report.
CD is clearly the main villain of the piece here, but yes, there are probably others. I just don’t think that the person who is still a teenager and has eventually spoken up is one of them. It seems hugely unlikely that they were the only person who witnessed or knew about this behaviour and presumably at least some of whom were adults in positions of a lot more influence. If we are going to castigate people for being complicit with the abuse surely it should be those who didn't come forward at all, especially those considerably higher up the food chain than a probably terrified teenager.

Edited

A very insightful post. I agree.

cgauUwahahaha · 24/07/2024 13:58

Haven't RTFT but outside of horsey circles OP she's Team GB's most decorated female Olympian joint with a runner (forgot her name)

MrsAvocet · 24/07/2024 14:03

cgauUwahahaha · 24/07/2024 13:58

Haven't RTFT but outside of horsey circles OP she's Team GB's most decorated female Olympian joint with a runner (forgot her name)

Joint with Laura Kenny (previously Trott) who is a track cyclist.

Hazelville · 24/07/2024 14:09

billycat321 · 24/07/2024 10:36

Heard on Radio5 Live this morning that the video is about four years old and that it has been made public now by a Dutch lawyer. Why wait until now? The timing is very suspect, just a few days before the Olympics. I think it is an attempt to sabotage UK equestrian team's chances.

I thought this video surfaced a couple of years ago.

ri12345 · 24/07/2024 14:31

A racing whip is padded (as are showjumping and eventing whips now) they are designed to not hurt the horse. They make a noise when used but really don't hurt - I've tested it on myself! There are strict rules on the number on times the whip can be used, how (not over arm) and where.

A lunge whip has a long whip and a cord at the end, it is designed to touch the horse with to give it instruction from the ground. If it is misused it would hurt and probably mark the horses skin.

Knuckledeep · 24/07/2024 14:35

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Butwhybecause · 24/07/2024 14:40

FlatWhiteExtraHot · 24/07/2024 12:29

Read the Guardian article. They tried and were told to shut up.

I will.

I've seen the video now, too, it didn't look like frustration or unusual loss of control, it looked as if it was a routine way of training.

Perhaps dressage will be banned as an Olympic 'sport' in future.

Nanny0gg · 24/07/2024 14:43

Is there any chance she can be prosecuted for animal cruelty?

Girliefriendlikespuppies · 24/07/2024 14:46

CountFucula · 24/07/2024 09:40

It’s almost like horses would rather be running free than forced to get their hair plaited and do weird fucking dances.

This.

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