Page 11 | I don’t understand the Charlotte Dujardin furore….

spikeandbuffy · 26/07/2024 11:20

Yeah I've been told a whip should never ever be carried. Which people don't see means some disabled riders would never be able to ride again
Or that all dressage is cruel when dressage at its basic is walk trot canter

Tumblingjungleofchaos · 26/07/2024 11:37

TheMightyWanderer · 24/07/2024 12:55

Good questions OP! I’m an equestrian and grew up idolising CDJ, and I’m so disappointed and upset to see her treat a horse this way, but I understand that to a non-equestrian it surely doesn’t look any worse than what happens in racing.

So to address the whipping issue first. In racing, they use padded batons and have a strict limit on how many times they can make contact with the horse before the jockey will face consequences like being banned or suspended. Most of the time the jockeys are basically waving the whips around in the air. You’ll see similar sorts of whips used in other jumping sports too — the cross country phase of eventing, showjumping, etc, and again their use is heavily monitored in competition.

In the video of CDJ, she’s using a lunging whip, which has a long “stick” bit and an even longer string/rope off the end. They’re designed to be used when “lunging”, which is when the handler is standing in the center of a circle with the horse moving around them. Basically you’re supposed to use whips like these by giving them a little wiggle on the ground behind and away from the horse in addition to voice commands to make the horse move a little faster. The string part will move and make the horse move away from it. It should never ever make contact with the horse under any circumstances.

For reference, there’s another type of whip called a schooling whip, which is thin and fairly long and usually has a very small bit of string at the end. These are designed to be used while riding, and basically to give the horse a little tickle behind your leg to get them to move off a little faster if they’re ignoring you squeezing with your lower leg. (This is really simplified but should give you an overview).

So the reason this is all a big drama is that CDJ was always respected for being kind to her horses, for loving them, and for reaching the very top without resorting to some of the cruel practices that you do (sadly) see in dressage and other equestrian sports. She was supposed to be one of the good ones. So to see her following a horse around an arena continuously whipping it with a lunge whip to the point of the horse clearly being distressed and scared, and her apparently just going about her usual business, is a huge problem for a sport that is already under scrutiny for the unscrupulous actions of a few really nasty types. It’s heartbreaking to see a horse in pain and fear, and it’s heartbreaking to get a peek behind the curtain at the practices of someone who was heralded as being the kind who puts her horses before her sport and who is/was held on a pedestal by so many equestrians.

It sadly brings all of equestrianism into a really bad light. Dressage is supposed to be about the partnership between horse and rider — about their bond and connection and harmony. Unfortunately that “harmony” can be faked through fear and aggression, and now someone we all thought wouldn’t resort to such tactics has been shown to do exactly that. Most equestrians I know (myself included) would die for their horses, and it’s a real blow to see one of our best known representatives acting like this with apparently not a care in the world.

Hope this helps clarify the situation for you!

Edited

Excellent explanation

Tumblingjungleofchaos · 26/07/2024 11:41

cgauUwahahaha · 24/07/2024 13:58

Haven't RTFT but outside of horsey circles OP she's Team GB's most decorated female Olympian joint with a runner (forgot her name)

No she was joint with Dame Laura Kenny (nee Trott), an incredible cyclist.

Tumblingjungleofchaos · 26/07/2024 11:59

OneReformedCharacter · 25/07/2024 10:56

The reason why this has caused such outrage is not only because it’s cruel, unnecessary, pointless and stupid. Charlotte has built a whole brand about how kind and progressive she is with her horses. She treats them more like normal horses than most high end competition horses - they get to go out in fields and hack out in the countryside and people admire that sort of ethos. The assumption is that she is kind to her horses and they love her. That she’s found a new way of treating her horses and still achieving the highest level results and that others can follow her lead.

For a lot of people, to find out that she is worse than most people would ever imagine and that the casual way that she punishes this horse shows that this might just be how she trains rather than a one off is incredibly shocking. This isn’t the first time there have been questions about the way she treats her horses - but this can’t be brushed off and that’s why I think the timing is absolutely perfect. Maximum impact to stop her. The silence from other top riders is deafening though

she deserves to lose everything. I’m glad her sponsors are dropping her.

Yes.

She's duped so many fans into thinking she's one of the "good" ones when actually she's an abuser.

DeclansAFeckingDream · 26/07/2024 12:00

VivaLaSpag · 24/07/2024 09:32

For transparency, I know absolutely nothing about horses but have seen this all blow up so am trying to understand the context and concern. In no way am I saying what she has done is right.

My question is, aren’t horses whipped to the finish line in horse races? If this is a routine practice then why is there such concern about what Dujardin has done?

If you've seen the footage, surely you know the answer to your own question?

NorthSouthLondon · 26/07/2024 12:16

spikeandbuffy · 26/07/2024 11:20

Yeah I've been told a whip should never ever be carried. Which people don't see means some disabled riders would never be able to ride again
Or that all dressage is cruel when dressage at its basic is walk trot canter

So people using whips are all disabled or assisting disabled raiders? Is that what you are saying?

Because otherwise your statement is senseless.

And even if that was the case, many people would think it is abuse.

What if a person disability prevents them from controlling a dog? Should they get a whip, because after all they deserve a dog?
It would be a bit of a contradiction..

I only have one friend who is into horse riding, since decades. She loves her horse to bits and if the only way to ride it was to use a whip, she would rather stop riding.

Regarding dressage being so easy on the horse, that's nonsense too.
It is an unnatural thing forced on the animals, and just the same as the circus of old. People pay to see the horse perform things which they would not naturally do. Riders are rewarded to force the horse to perform that way.
It's the very nature of the sport, quite evident to everybody.

Windchiming · 26/07/2024 12:20

OneReformedCharacter · 26/07/2024 07:06

Look at the horse in the background. There’s coercion right there.

take your own blinkers off

Edited

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I don't believe you can get a horse do that funny leg movements by tapping either. Maybe tapping is to trigger the trauma of being whipped in horse to get them do what the owner wants. Sadly animal rights are still not that important and it is a survival of the fittest kind of world in this day and age.

spikeandbuffy · 26/07/2024 12:30

It is NOT unnatural for the hundredth time
Have you never seen an excited horse passage along a fence line or do a pirouette? Or been on a horse when they do a pirouette as they spook? Or seen a horse extended trot loose in the arena?
Dressage at its basic is walk trot and canter, that isn't in the slightest bit unnatural and neither is an extended trot

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a whip used as it should be, a lunge whip used for lunging and a schooling whip used to replace a leg aid for schooling. If you can't use your leg, you use a whip to replace it
By using a whip I mean a tap, or a press - I press as that's what she is used to from my leg

Dressage isn't abuse but there are people who use abusive methods and that needs to be called out

BustingBaoBun · 26/07/2024 12:34

I was a guest at Badminton Horse Trials and sat through dressage. It just seemed so unnatural to me. A horse being 'trained' to prance around in a very weird way. I don't get it at all.

OneReformedCharacter · 26/07/2024 12:48

NorthSouthLondon · 26/07/2024 12:16

So people using whips are all disabled or assisting disabled raiders? Is that what you are saying?

Because otherwise your statement is senseless.

And even if that was the case, many people would think it is abuse.

What if a person disability prevents them from controlling a dog? Should they get a whip, because after all they deserve a dog?
It would be a bit of a contradiction..

I only have one friend who is into horse riding, since decades. She loves her horse to bits and if the only way to ride it was to use a whip, she would rather stop riding.

Regarding dressage being so easy on the horse, that's nonsense too.
It is an unnatural thing forced on the animals, and just the same as the circus of old. People pay to see the horse perform things which they would not naturally do. Riders are rewarded to force the horse to perform that way.
It's the very nature of the sport, quite evident to everybody.

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She’s saying that some people are up in arms about the fact that whips are used at all. Used correctly, a whip isn’t a bad thing. Many disabled riders rely on whips as a way to communicate with their horses as a replacement for a leg aid for example. You might use a schooling whip with a very light touch on a horse’s hip to help if understand that you would like it to move over. Someone riding sidesaddle lacking a leg on one side would use their whip as a replacement leg. A driving whip for carriage horses is a useful tool.

when we talk about whips we aren’t necessarily talking about the lunge whip CDJ was using (which should never touch the horse) - they come in different lengths designed for different purposes. It’s down to how you use them. For some people they’re necessary and they should use them sensibly to communicate and guide, not to thrash the horse with. Even though it’s called a whip they shouldn’t be used for whipping either.

Roryno · 26/07/2024 14:48

BustingBaoBun · 26/07/2024 12:34

I was a guest at Badminton Horse Trials and sat through dressage. It just seemed so unnatural to me. A horse being 'trained' to prance around in a very weird way. I don't get it at all.

The level of dressage at Badminton and other top level events is much easier than the pure dressage top level. It’s simpler tasks and the horses generally wear much kinder bits. These really are movements that a horse playing in a field would do (pic of mine doing extended trot in the field, for example). The event horses are usually as fit as a grand National horse and asking them to work calmly and obediently and be so precise is the challenge.

I don’t understand the Charlotte Dujardin furore….

Lovely13 · 26/07/2024 19:47

Reckon dujardin had been paid a lot by those filming and chuckling in background to produce results in lesson with young rider and horse. Wasn’t working,
So she resorted to brute force. Ultimately, pointless. Horse didn’t go any better, rider potentially endangered.
I’ve been around horses and stables for most of my life. Bad things happen to the poor horses when people get frustrated and expect too much of the horse.
It’s sad.

SuperCath · 26/07/2024 22:07

Listen I am a low level equestrian and I use whips. I would never and have never used one in the way CJD did and I don’t have a clutch of medals to lose.

For those asking about correct usage I will give examples of mine.

i once bought a horse who hadn’t been trained to go forward off the leg. I used a schooling whip to tap him behind my leg every time he ignored my gentle aids. After two weeks I no longer needed to use the whip, just carrying it was enough. I have owned him over 20 years and this early training saved him years of being kicked in the ribs every time I rode. That was presumably what his previous owner did, which is worrying as he had been owned and broken in by a professional.
i had a horse who wouldn’t readily canter on the lunge. His physio needed to see him in all gaits before she could properly assess and treat him. It turned out he was fine and didn’t need an adjustment. I used a long lunge whip with a lash to make a crack sound in the air behind him, to get him into canter. Note the whip never touched him and I had owned him a long time at this point so he knew I would never harm him.
There have been countless times where I have carried a whip and raised it within a ponies sight line to discourage a behaviour I don’t want. For example refusing a fence or stepping out into traffic. Note as in previous example the pony knowing the whip is there is often enough without it ever touching them.

In many cases I actually think spurs are far more problematic than whips.

LighthouseTheme · 26/07/2024 23:49

What I am beginning to think (see disclaimer below) is that, if a whip (stick, crop -- whatever we want to call it) is needed in the pursuit of an activity, or a sport - should we be doing it at all?

Disclaimer: I have been around all sorts of horses - and other equines, in widely differing environments - including to my shame, and for a very short time, a very well-known circus. From rescues large and small (biggest being a Shire), "standard" riding school ponies and horses, magnificent hunters, racehorses in work, stallions and mares at stud, youngsters including "rescued" from Shetland, Grand Prix dressage prospects [not mine, haha], and of course, had my own ex-racehorse for his happy hacking and then full retirement, and my daughter's miniature cross something or other, who we brought home from the sales in a hatchback.

Never ever in any of those scenarios have I ever used a whip. Ever.

Maybe I have just met horses and ponies that didn't "need" it - but, to me - they just have not been a choice I would make.
(In the Circus, one was carried to give a a line for a group of six stallions to follow. And that was it. Like I said, that experience was something I was not proud of.)

spikeandbuffy · 26/07/2024 23:54

LighthouseTheme · 26/07/2024 23:49

What I am beginning to think (see disclaimer below) is that, if a whip (stick, crop -- whatever we want to call it) is needed in the pursuit of an activity, or a sport - should we be doing it at all?

Disclaimer: I have been around all sorts of horses - and other equines, in widely differing environments - including to my shame, and for a very short time, a very well-known circus. From rescues large and small (biggest being a Shire), "standard" riding school ponies and horses, magnificent hunters, racehorses in work, stallions and mares at stud, youngsters including "rescued" from Shetland, Grand Prix dressage prospects [not mine, haha], and of course, had my own ex-racehorse for his happy hacking and then full retirement, and my daughter's miniature cross something or other, who we brought home from the sales in a hatchback.

Never ever in any of those scenarios have I ever used a whip. Ever.

Maybe I have just met horses and ponies that didn't "need" it - but, to me - they just have not been a choice I would make.
(In the Circus, one was carried to give a a line for a group of six stallions to follow. And that was it. Like I said, that experience was something I was not proud of.)

I have to use one to be able to ride and don't see it as a problem, it's simply a replacement leg as such for me
I also wouldn't hack without one - you can ride with it sticking out almost sideways and it's a good visual to get drivers to slow!

Sometimes a tap is kinder than the kick kick you see and the "give him a good kick" at riding schools. If I thought about myself would I rather a kick in the ribs constantly or a tap...

LighthouseTheme · 27/07/2024 00:22

@spikeandbuffy I understand if you need it as a replacement for use of your leg - and I suppose sidesaddle riders use one in the same way.
I have carried one sometimes - but in all honesty never used it; I would be more likely to to use it to push branches away that might otherwise knock me off!
I have never once used one to make contact.

spikeandbuffy · 27/07/2024 00:27

It's definitely handy for nettles or hooking awkward gates! Horse doesn't give a crap either about me waving it around her ears to get rid of flies (you can tell I've never hit her with it as you can wave it about and she just blinks at me like I'm a weirdo)

Just don't have the power in my right leg after spinal surgery and found riding incredibly hard as my left leg was asking more. Had some very bizarre movements until I started using my whip in my right hand and retraining with that

jannier · 27/07/2024 00:58

Toastandmarmaladeisdelish · 24/07/2024 13:24

She's literally videoing the abuse and laughing simultaneously, stop being an apologist for her disgusting behaviour

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Surely if the person videoing was the same one laughing it would drown out the voice of the rider etc? But if someone is behind the videographer even out of the barn the laugh and voice could be recorded.

LighthouseTheme · 27/07/2024 01:18

jannier · 27/07/2024 00:58

Surely if the person videoing was the same one laughing it would drown out the voice of the rider etc? But if someone is behind the videographer even out of the barn the laugh and voice could be recorded.

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I am confused about who filmed it, and who submitted it?
Not the same person, and not the rider?
And why it was being filmed in the first place.... it doesn't seem to be a video that could be reviewed afterwards to learn from.
If not CD's horse, why did the actual owner of it (the rider/cameraperson?) allow it?
Was the person laughing the person who was filming?
If they were finding it so hilarious, why submit it at all (after all this time)?
Or, who else got their hands on it, to submit it?

Did "they" know of CD's cruel treatment and have a plan to stop it/bring it to the Authorities - and if so, why wait?

LighthouseTheme · 27/07/2024 01:28

@spikeandbuffy I do understand the use in your case; if you cannot even give a squeeze in the right place, it must be tricky.
But good on you for keeping on keeping on as they say - and I am sorry about your surgery,
I imagine you both did many many circles, figuring it out!

I used to put hawthorn twigs in the top of my horse's bridle to keep flies off - can't say it was 100% effective but he didn't mind.

I remember riding one of my Lecturer's horses at college (mature student). Every single thing he did was from the voice...... including just a quiet "whoa" to decelerate form a flat out gallop!
(Mine came out as a bit of a squeak though...)

jannier · 27/07/2024 01:29

LighthouseTheme · 27/07/2024 01:18

I am confused about who filmed it, and who submitted it?
Not the same person, and not the rider?
And why it was being filmed in the first place.... it doesn't seem to be a video that could be reviewed afterwards to learn from.
If not CD's horse, why did the actual owner of it (the rider/cameraperson?) allow it?
Was the person laughing the person who was filming?
If they were finding it so hilarious, why submit it at all (after all this time)?
Or, who else got their hands on it, to submit it?

Did "they" know of CD's cruel treatment and have a plan to stop it/bring it to the Authorities - and if so, why wait?

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Did you read previous posts that say the film is 4 years old and the then 14 year old was warned off?
I'd imagine anyone paying for a lesson or seeing a lesson given by someone famous would film it just like people photograph celebrities everywhere.
They would also have to not just find it awful....as many do over various animal sports and think they should be banned....but know enough to be able to say this is not an approved method ....which if also young takes a lot of courage

LighthouseTheme · 27/07/2024 01:41

@jannier
I did. I have read all comments on both threads, also several news articles and listened to some reports.

And my questions remain. It doesn't make sense, for the reasons I have stated/queried.

SuperCath · 27/07/2024 07:17

@LighthouseTheme if you listen carefully you will hear, near the start of the video, the rider saying “why do you have to hurt him” in an upset tone. CDJ replies with something along the lines of “because he’s shit”.
Riders parents and the people who host demos with famous riders, will often film parts. Sometimes it is for learning afterwards, often to boast on SM they have had a lesson with them or hosted a clinic at their yard.
Lots of people “knew” about Jimmy Savile. Does that make them equally responsible for the crimes he committed?

LighthouseTheme · 27/07/2024 10:48

SuperCath · 27/07/2024 07:17

@LighthouseTheme if you listen carefully you will hear, near the start of the video, the rider saying “why do you have to hurt him” in an upset tone. CDJ replies with something along the lines of “because he’s shit”.
Riders parents and the people who host demos with famous riders, will often film parts. Sometimes it is for learning afterwards, often to boast on SM they have had a lesson with them or hosted a clinic at their yard.
Lots of people “knew” about Jimmy Savile. Does that make them equally responsible for the crimes he committed?

Oh - I hadn't heard that. It would all have stopped at that point for me.
Again, if the mother/owner was present (and filming, or had knowledge of...) , she should have called her out, and called a halt She's not God..

But I'm still no clearer on who the horse is owned by - and if it was anyone other than the trainer, and they were present, the lesson should have stopped.

As I said, it looked slightly stealthy, and not at all a video that you would expect to be used to review (or fangirl over).

It all still does not add up in a logical manner for me.
But I am pleased she has been exposed, even if so much time has elapsed that I am sure that that whip has been around many legs.

(I didn't say anything about anyone being being complicit - but what's the saying --- "All that it takes for evil to prevail, is for as good man to do nothing".)

TheUsualChaos · 28/07/2024 09:16

I have wondered if the video was being filmed discretely and the laughing is just chatter going in the background? Some phone cameras have tech now where it decides which audio to pick up on and make the clearest. I'm not convinced the person filming is the one laughing, maybe just some one who was there and not even really paying much attention to the lesson.

I don’t understand the Charlotte Dujardin furore….

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