Thread 2. Starmer, return of the Labour government

[L1ttledrummergirl]

Yes, lame but the last thread was nearly full.

The immediate suspension of 7 MPs from Labour is clear blue water between Starmer and Sunak. It will also have removed some of the more dim members of the party. Good to have them out early doors. Keeps things much more adult.

No one despises the cap more than I - except maybe Suella Braverman. However having agreed the rules beforehand, there is no money at the moment. So a performative "look at me !" vote was a waste of time. You simply aren't ever going to crack a 174 167 seat majority.

@SerendipityJane ha- I agree about those MPs- all utterly unrealistic -don't actually seem to advocate responsibility at all-
My view is don't have 4 kids unless you are married with assets in case it goes wrong. get life assurance etc. although I don't agree with you about the cap- I don't actually disagree with the rule- especially now that people can keep 100% of maintenance and not be counted towards UC one iota- it's all very well people saying they get none or very little-plenty get 'plenty' -the lady I know well gets around £800 plus full UC and full rent covered and does as little work as she can get away with as she says 'she's fine' - so I'm afraid it's not everyone is in the position of starving kids- I'm more for getting to root causes of poverty , debt management, private renting allowances on UC being brought up to 'real' levels ( which are not in the same ballpark as social housing) so many people are using money meant for food and utilities to simply top up and make their rent..proper teams on feckless fathers contributing and not hiding money- particularly self employed ones.

They don’t have any new blood. So many seats were lost…
Shame. Not.

Indeed. It’s a mystery to me why she would continue as a Labour MP when she maintains that the party’s treated her so badly. After all other left leaning parties would welcome her.

Ha yes shame!

And if there's a limit on the second third and fourth jobs MPs can have there will be a lot fewer rich Tories wanting to stand.

As always with these incidents, a split develops which helps no one.

One the one hand is the question of "Was Starmer correct to deal with the situation this way ?"

On the other is "Is the underlying issue fair .... ?"

It's a great way to dissipate energy to debate on 2 fronts. As Napoleon and Hitler found out.

2 child cap ? Bad
Starmer dealing with dissent ? Good.

I suspect the Tory client media are feeling rather cheated (maybe they should sue ?). After all they have become used to such psychodramas dragging out for months with Rishi "Mr Inaction" Sunak. And here we have the 7 rebels suspended almost before the vote was counted. There goes 4 weeks of easy coverage. Except maybe the Telegraph. Which can bung a few quid to "a legal expert" and come up with a piece about it being against the ECHR or some similar bollocks they pulled with VAT and schools.

If life is going to be this workaday under Labour then the shenanigans of the Tory party will provide much more fodder.

"So a performative "look at me !" vote was a waste of time. "

Yep. If you stood to be elected on the current manifesto then you don't get to bitch about it 2/3 weeks later.

I would like them to ditch the cap but understand why they didn't pledge to do that now and why they had to take action.

I bet the right wing media is frothing privately that it can’t get any flip-flop-Starmer/left will walk all over him mileage out of this. I bet some posters are gutted too.

Some posters have gone very quiet recently.

Would they? Who?

I think Starmer did the right thing. It pains me to say so as I think the cap should be ditched ASAP, but that change should be led by the government.

All the guff about the left waiting to take take over is now neutralised.

The Greens or Libdems would welcome her. Obviously she wouldn’t do it because their stance is incompatible with hers on the issue we don’t discuss here.

I’m afraid I haven’t been able to resist baiting one with the whip removal. Bad Cardi.

I think it is harsh on the likes of ZS, RB and ZS to say they are voting 'performatively'. They are Labour MPs representing constituencies where they have been voted back in as noted Corbynites. I imagine many of their constituents expected them to do exactly as they did and are writing to congratulate or support them . I would. I think they are voting totally in line with their own moral compasses and there seems to be no sanctions for tactical abstainers. Starmer claims Labour is a broad church where there is room for left wingers - it was anti semitism that he rooted out, not socialism.

I understand his moves, pragmatically. But also totally support those who voted differently.

As Burgon said, he backed the King's Speech - you can support many things but have your own red lines.

Well quite, so she's stuck without a party because she wouldn't go to them and they wouldn't want her.

I don't think she is on the left of the party?

I am feeling that the cap will be lifted without warning one day. "When the time is ready" is a powerful tool used correctly. Obviously there would be a fanfare as it would represent a vindication of The Plan. But sudden enough that a lot of critics will be taken by surprise. And 7 newly independent MPs will look rather silly.

"Under promise. Over deliver". Or was I the only one with ears open and brain running at the same time ?

I completely agree on all counts. I’m pretty sure the front bench want it gone too, but they made commitments and were elected on that basis. Just had an interesting discussion about it on a CLP WhatsApp with some very knowledgable people (including one ex minister from Blair’s government). Consensus is - bring pressure within the party (whether an MP or just a member - or even a non-member constituent) but keep a united front in public.

Spot on.

That is what I think and hope will happen. Hopefully soon.

I wonder if all the stuff about Cooper finding spare money secretly committed to Rwanda but not disclosed is the beginnings of a means to do this?

This is why I couldn't be an MP. I totally could not vote in line with a 'team' against my won beliefs and principles. I'd have to have Covid every week.

I suspect the Rwanda money is just the start. Redistribution of funds is likely to produce £££££.

Labour wont lift the cap, its very popular among the general population and Labour have far far bigger issues to deal with.

1.5 billion to left this cap, 4bn to ease the dental crisis, if Reeves has any extra money atm, dentistry is the priority & one that would have an almost immediate impact on the public.

Even if they lifted the 'cap, there is no guarantee the extra money would be spent on children at all, i think its rather silly to say it would lift all these children out of poverty.

Politicians need to accept that there will be some things your party does that you don't agree with -and many you do- you take those discussions internally stating your points with evidence -and understand their point too on priorities and budgets-and yes in same cases too - deterrents. I'm Labour but don't particularly think it's fair to working people restricting families as they don't get any benefits at all- I don't think it should be in cash- get to root causes- private rents too high and allowances too low ( particularly in certain areas ) , utilities too high, debt management, poor public transport in some areas meaning people getting taxi's or having cars they can't really afford in order to get to work - there are so many reasons - we see them on mumsnet and it's not all about what's coming in- some of it is about what's going out!

I thought surveys showed it wasn't popular?

Anyway to me, it reveals the true pot stirrers in the party- and that's not necessarily the ones who voted against because everyone knows those. There are others trying to undermine Starmer rather less boldly . I think we know who I mean.