Can the parents reach closure with this?

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw4448xx4keo

Horrible tragedy but the driver was completely innocent having had an epileptic seizure with none previously occuring. The problem seems to be the parents can't accept this. Should they have been advised against not making a statement as it will probably exacerbate the huge guilt felt by the driver for no reason.

I clearly said in the drivers shoes I couldn’t live with myself. I can’t be clearer than that. Of course I don’t think the driver should feel the same, that’s just twisting my words. But I do find it unsettling that a lot of posts on here are geared more towards empathy for the driver rather than the parents/ children. I personally sway towards more empathy with the parents and children. Each to their own.

Will the possibility of seizure be used routinely as a possible defence in future cases of death by dangerous driving? If there is no definitive biomarker for epilepsy could d future defendants simply self report a seizure and create a considerable legal hurdle to conviction?

Could it be that the CPS in a lot of cases are dealing with joy riders in such cases without recourse to expensive legal teams and so we're presented with a scale of defence not typically seen?

Would a court case though horrendous for all concerned have allowed a more public scrutiny of events and possibly satisfied the family the driver was innocent through observation of due process in a court room setting?

The number of posters on here implying that there is corruption in the police and medical profession because the driver was white, rich, and has supposedly expensive lawyers is unreal. I suppose you are also Lucy Letby supporters too and think she was unfairly convicted and that you know she is the scapegoat to cover up what was really going on. Some people really need to give up their armchair investigations and their arrogance that they know more about the case and it’s investigations than what the police and medical processionals do.

Lives have been devastated with the loss of two beloved girls, but sadly sometimes a chain of events can be proven to be a tragic accident and no one is liable for prosecution.

She isn't a diplomat. Why would independent neurologists collude in a lie? They would be risking their entire careers and their reputations.

The best legal firm in the world cannot manufacture neurological evidence, or the witness evidence of those who were there at the time.

How were the parents "treated terribly"?

So what are you claiming? That she deliberately got into her car and drove it into the school? Why? And then for some reason the witnesses and the police all colluded to hide what had happened, and neurologists instructed by the police and CPS also decided to collude in that? Again, why? Given that they would be potentially destroying their careers and reputations to the extent that they would have to leave the country if found out, it would take bribes of millions of pounds.

What is your evidence that, in fact, this woman didn't, like many others, have her first seizure totally unexpectedly whilst driving, with awful consequences?

I suspect you've lost your house, then, because the chances are that what has led to epilepsy being confirmed has been subsequent seizures. When are you handing it over?

She was driving along a narrow road where you really can't get up speed. Even if she lost control, all she had to do was hit the brakes. That is wholly inconsistent with breaking through a fence, crossing a lawn and burying your car in the side of a building. That would need consistent pressing of the accelerator as happens when, for instance, the driver is having a seizure.

It's so terribly sad for the parents.

I'm sorry to say it but the trend for unnecessarily large SUVs is also a factor here.

Where does all this come from? Because what I've heard is that she was unconscious and had bitten her tongue, and was taken away by ambulance.

Epilepsy presents in different ways. Some does show on scans. It is also confirmed by subsequent seizures.

How exactly do you know what this individual's medical evidence shows? Which medical professional decided to destroy their career and break their duty of confidentiality by showing it to you?

Also just love the confidence with which someone says 'hadnt wet herself'

Did someone look in her underwear then?

This statement clearly shows your lack of understanding of the reality of what goes into a forensic collision investigation. They don’t just ask the driver “did you have seizure, yes, ok then”.
The reason roads are closed for so long after fatal collisions occur is because they’re gathering evidence. Every mark on the road etc shows something, many photographs and measurements are taken as once the road is reopened they can’t reexamine it and a vehicle examiner will forensically check the vehicle as well as obtaining information from the internal computer of the car. In some instances they reenact the conditions and circumstances. This is all part of the process as well as speaking to actual witnesses rather than those speculating online. The reason it can take a year or more to get these investigations completed isn’t because they’re trying to find a loophole it’s because they have to get it right. These matters either go to a crown court or a coroner’s court. As the collision is no further action as far as the police are concerned it will now go to the coroner’s court, which is the scrutiny that you refer to. If you think people can just get away with claiming to have had a seizure you are deluded.

As a mother touching 50, a solicitor with experience of dealing with the CPS, educated in and very familiar with SW London, and (as it happens) epilepsy diagnosed in my mid-30s: @hohohomey has it.

People want to believe in doctors, police officers, solicitors, the CPS. They are the infrastructure of a society that is orderly and in which justice might exist. It makes us feel secure. Reality is very, very different. The law doesn’t set the framework for moral justice; in areas such as this it merely allocates responsibility.

Uncertainty is being exploited in favour of the driver and to the detriment of the parents. It happens all the time. The most bitter of pills for the bereaved parents to have to swallow.

Separately, I’m shocked and disheartened by the naive vociferous defence of the driver on this thread. Perhaps they are vested parties; perhaps these posters see themselves in her more than the parents of the deceased girls.

How do you know there is any uncertainty, @masomenos? If independent neurologists have confirmed that the driver was having a seizure at the relevant time, and that is supported by witness and other forensic evidence (which, as I understand it is the case, despite @hohohomey's fiction), where is the uncertainty?

The CPS is dispassionate. It would not make statements of fact without evidence and nor would it conclude that there was no potential for conviction if there was. The gravity of this case was such that they would have taken their time to ensure their investigation was as thorough as possible before reaching a conclusion, possibly going back repeatedly to try to uncover any other possible causes of wrong doing. If anything, the timeframe suggests the CPS was very concerned to ensure that the victims received justice if it was at all warranted.

Our friend didn't wet himself during his unexpected first seizure when driving either. I assume it's not always something that happens.

My sister didn’t wet herself during her first tonic clinic seizure. She want driving hit she was caring for a patient in hospital at the time. She also work up and then walked down to A&E to have her head stitched. She constantly says people don’t really understand epilepsy and this thread shows she is right.

There are some right twats on this thread. The police will have checked if the brake

@masomenos what are you blithering on about?

@CIAGBF for most people, empathy is not a net sum game. Empathy for the driver does not reduce empathy for the parents.

@similarminimer some people are only able to manage binary thinking: that there are only 2 sides and you pick one of them. More nuanced thinking is too challenging for them.

Of course it's entirely possible to feel desperately sorry for all who are impacted: the families of the girls who died, the driver, the driver's family .... all these lives have been devastated.

Would a court case though horrendous for all concerned have allowed a more public scrutiny of events and possibly satisfied the family the driver was innocent through observation of due process in a court room setting?

I very much doubt it, since the CPS evidently don't think there's enough chance of success to justify a prosecution. The outcome the bereaved families want is for the CPS to have assessed the evidence differently, to actually believe there's a good enough chance of conviction and to want to pursue it themselves.

But that hasn't happened. So a court case now would involve the CPS making a case they don't think has a good enough chance of succeeding, that they may even believe to have no legal merit at all. It would be a fiasco.

With you @masomenos and @hohohomey and I expect yes, we are more likely to see more of those random epilepsy accidents ☹️ 👿

Even if she wasn't on the phone or was on hands-free phone, she could have been distracted by something else and hit accelerator instead of the break and that to me would surely be careless driving.

So sad for the parents going through it ☹️

Are there any medical professionals here that can tell if it’s possible to prove if a person had a seizure or not? From what I read you can’t prove anything, the doctor can do a MRI or ECG but that still won’t provide info if the person had a seizure at that time or not. The tongue biting can be from any impact btw.

I am afraid it can create a precedent where anybody can say that they had a first time seizure in a crash.

I find it baffling that people won’t believe in the possibility of corruption or ties with the “right” people.

If anyone could say they had a first time seizure I'm sure it would be happening on a regular basis to avoid criminal charges. It doesn't take a high level hot shot lawyer to suggest it. Any duty solicitor called in could suggest it's a possibility!

It's clearly not that simple; there's obviously more to this case and it may well be that the driver has had confirmed seizures since, recorded on EEG, or it may be that witnesses to the event observed things that we can't know. There will also have been extensive testing on the vehicle, whether the accelerator was hit accidentally and the car sped up, whether there was any braking etc etc etc

Genuine cases do exist and shock alone could probably be used as an excuse for not remembering but if epilepsy cannot be proven then it's an easy way out.

I knew a lady whose brain tumor was diagnosed after her first ever seizure. Her leg suddenly spasmed, she hit accelerator and went off road, stopping in a ditch. But she ended up in hospital having a brain surgery.