Is this normal for a 10 year old boy?

[Lawcruncher]

Recently my 10 year old (year 5) nephew ‘B’ came to stay with us. I don’t get to see him often due to distance and was really looking forward to this trip. It was easter holidays, his mum had a routine hospital visit and my brother (his dad) had to work, so I was glad to help out by looking after him for a few days. The experience has left me concerned for his wellbeing, and I am not sure what to do. I feel like I should speak to my brother, but I am worried about causing a family rift. I would appreciate any feedback, positive or negative, as currently I feel very conflicted.

I could write so much more here about all the things that concerned me but I’m not sure people would want to read all that, so I will summarise as best I can.
He arrived in tears because his ipad had run out of battery on the car journey. That was my brothers fault because he didn’t remind him to charge it. In the instructions for looking after him I was told that he is only allowed to play on his ipad between 7am and 8pm. His bedtime is 8pm and he is allowed to watch 1 DVD in bed, to help him fall asleep. He sleeps with the light on all night as he doesn’t like the dark.

He needs to be supervised brushing his teeth and using the toilet before bed, otherwise he won’t do it but will say he has. If he doesn’t use the toilet before bed he will wet the bed. He needs help dressing appropriately in the morning. He doesn’t shower, and his mum baths him once a week. He doesn’t use deo and is quite smelly most of the time.

He cannot use a knife and fork. I don’t mean that he is bad with them, I literally mean he cannot use them. At breakfast he was unable to butter his toast. He just didn’t know how to hold the knife and even when shown, just could not do it. He also doesn’t use a fork, preferring a spoon or his fingers.

At lunch in a café he burst into tears when his jacket potato with cheese arrived with salad. He had read the menu and ordered himself, but not realise it would come with salad. That was my fault for not explaining it. After pushing all the salad off the plate (he did use his knife for that) he requested a spoon and proceeded to eat the potato using a spoon and his fingers. He was pushing potato with his fingers onto his spoon, and picking up dropped potato with his fingers. It was embarrassing.

That evening I made steak, chips, mushrooms and peas. B wouldn’t eat the mushrooms or peas, ate the chips with fingers and, after I had to cut it for him, ate the steak pieces with a spoon, using his fingers to push the pieces on. At mealtimes we tried to engage in conversation but all he could talk about was fortnite. At home he eats his meals on his own, on a tray in front of the TV. His standard meal is jacket potato with cheese, but sometimes he has a ham and cheese wrap. His parents eat after he has gone to bed. Even on a weekend, he eats separately in front of the TV.

All B wanted to do all day was sit in his room and play on his ipad, or sit in the living room and watch TV. It turned out that is all he does at home, and we had more tears and tantrums when I wouldn’t let him do that all day. He doesn’t participate in any activities (clubs, sports etc..), or have any friends. He can’t swim, ride a bike, kick a ball or tie shoe laces. He doesn’t read books. He is very overweight and did not want to play at the park I took him to. He would burst into tears at the drop of a hat, and everything is always someone else’s fault. His diet is very limited and does not include salad or vegetables unless you count potato. He likes to snack on crisps and full fat coke and had a full-on meltdown when he learned that we don’t have crisps in the house and only had coke zero, demanding that we go to the supermarket to buy them (we didn’t).

When my brother collected him at the end of the visit I mentioned what it had been like and he just dismissed it with ‘yeah, that’s what 10 year old boys are like!’ and didn’t seem bothered in the slightest.

I know other people with kids similar ages and have not seen anything like this. It was almost like watching a 2/3 year old toddler in a 10 year olds body. We have 2 girls of our own, both at Uni now, and by the time they were 6 or 7 they were fully capable of eating a meal using cutlery, and could tie shoe laces. They didn’t burst into tears at the smallest thing, and were socially able. They had friends, played outside and participated in sports/clubs. By age 10 they were so much more capable and independent then B is.

So is this normal for a 10 year old boy? Am I right or wrong to be concerned? Should I say something to his parents?

Many many similarities to my autistic son. He wouldn’t in a million years stay somewhere without parents - but if he did I would anticipate his anxiety to be high and his behaviour to be different than at home. We don’t share every detail about him with family because I couldn’t bear the thought of them then discussing him on an internet forum ……

I would say that none of this sounds usual for a 10 year old boy. 10 year olds can hold quite a lot of responsibility and take initiative. For example: get themselves dressed, pack a school bag, walk themselves to school (if a safe journey), play a sport with relatively complicated rules, read a book, cook a simple meal with some support: I could go on. Obviously this is different for every child, but it sounds to me like this child has additional needs that aren’t really being met for whatever reason. Surely his school would pick up on it?

I think people are assuming from the description she gave and I agree, it seems parents of ND children relate and can see similarities with their own children. Personally I think a NT child would instinctively learn all these skills and be naturally more active even with 24/7 screen access. A 10 year old doesnt cry at every little thing. I don't think lazy parenting would create this type of behaviour and other PPs tend to agree.

The OP not thinking it's SN/ND could simply be because she has little experience of children like this.
Countless pp now have said that aspects of the described behaviour remind them of their child with autism/dyspraxia etc.

This quote from the OP resonates with me in particular:
It was almost like watching a 2/3 year old toddler in a 10 year olds body.
The term developmental delay is used for a reason by those who assess SN!

The parents may be failing by ignoring their son's problems of course. OP's brother's response to her queries is worrying so this seems likely. But it would be most unwise to dismiss the possibllity of SN simply because OP doesn't think it an issue.

I am also very aware that parenting a SN child is not the same as parenting a typically deveoping child. Parenting strategies are sometimes, by neccessity, different and often misunderstood by the general public. However, it does sound like the parents may be struggling/unaware/in denial here and that the child has been very let down as a result.

Fair enough, @Orangeandlemonsquash

Perhaps I worded my reply clumsily. You did suggest others were using SN or ND as an 'excuse' for poor behaviour - and objected to this.

Neither did you initially acknowledge these conditions as 'one possible reason' for the child's behaviour.

On the contrary , you said

I suspect there’s nothing wrong other than lazy parenting and him being a spoiled brat!

I disagreed.

Yes there is so much I agree with and I am absolutely against parent bashing.

But it is possible to have a very challenging child and poor parenting working hand in hand. There are many examples where the patents could be working harder to encourage him to have a healthier life

• swimming - my son was terrified of it and so it took 6 years to work up to him getting to the he comfortable in a pool. Now at 8 he swims well.
• yes screentime is regulating for many children and who are SEND but I personally disagree with any benefits of excessive use.
• biking- could be encouraged to use a trike or if he’s embarrassed a different type etc.
• eating on his own - even if they eat together or one parent eats with him a few times a week.
• you can get adapted cutlery
• No friends - there are many support groups and also they could find one club he feels comfortable with.
• restricted eating is very challenging but healthier options are a possibility to gradually filter in and there is lots of support out there to encourage children to not over eat.
• the bathing - more independence could be gradually encouraged.

I could go on. Im not ‘parent bashing’ but they are letting him down in so many ways.

Because on the balance of probabilities I suspect this is down yo lazy parenting.

And yes, I do think many people use ND as an excuse to do nothing. Many of the things mentioned can be addressed by most people with say ADHD it just takes a lot of work and thinking outside the box.

From what OP has said I do think there's a mix of things going on @devonbabs.

I think it's quite possible the child has issues that the parents haven't recognised or addressed.

I think you're being a bit hard on ND people by the way. People have different abilities and disabilities and some things may be managed well by one person but not by another. That doesn't automatically mean the second person just hasn't tried hard enough and is making excuses.

I would also add that he may not have been picked up by the school has having sen a he may be masking at school or the issues aren’t in the limelight. I suspect he takes a packed lunch so that he can eat his safe food with his hands. I suspect his behaviour is fine as he needs the routine that school provides. He’s possibly on the academic end of ASD and therefore enjoys learning and following what’s going on in class. They probably then see his weight but and he possibly doesn’t enjoy PE and just have him down as one of those unfit kids who takes after his parents (I note his parents are on the larger side as well). He sounds like he presents untypical to many boys and presents quite typical to the female version of ASD which is misunderstood consists of masking and trying to fit in at school and internalising all the feelings associated without lashing out. When I say female and male presentation there are both females and males that present in both ways however many girls were and still are diagnosed late as the criteria for assessment leans more to a presentation which shows more obvious external traits and behaviours. The more academic autistic boys tend to just be seen as a little bit nerdy and quirky into things are unpicked.

As for those saying he should be showering daily and not bathed once a week, this is something parents of autistic children struggle with. Working in a send school we shower many at school as parents just can’t get them in the bath or shower at home. My own autistic older teen hates baths. She’s also not a fan of showers. Lots of sensory reasons for this from the undressing stage through to the drying off and getting dressed at the other end. It’s a daily battle and we manage by agreeing to every other day and they still need someone in the bathroom shouting prompts to keep momentum going. This is a child recited decent grades at GCSE. I have another friend who’s autistic child would point blank refuse showers for days on end. Even weeks. She knew and acknowledged her teen was smelly but even the therapist she was seeing (due to other issues the anxiety the teen was experiencing was causing) told her to concentrate on the other things first which were causing even more problems and not to worry about the bathing.

Also ND does tend to run in families. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are some undiagnosed issues with one or both parents meaning that they’ve struggled to notice and address these issues. There are lots of undiagnosed adults around who are ND and who just seem to cope in their own ways.

From my experience some people (I suspect many of those self diagnosed”) do see it as an excuse. See it a lot with the graduates at work.

Thank you again for all your comments. I did not expect such a response and reading through everything has really helped me. I am now confident that, regardless of the underlying cause, some of these behaviours are simply not typical and I do need to speak with my brother about them. I accept the many comments suggesting that some of the behaviours such as the crying etc.. could be attributed to being away from home and mum in hospital and/or hormones. Instead, I intend to focus the conversation on the more ‘measurable’ things such as the inability to use cutlery and tie laces – these are things that I think an average 5 or 6 year old should be able to do, let alone a 10 year old. I will ask what my brother thinks about B’s inability to do this and will ask directly if he’s ever been assessed by a professional. If he hasn’t, I will strongly suggest that they do get him assessed. I plan to do this one-to-one rather with the SIL.

Addressing some of the other comments: I said at the beginning there was a lot more I could write but wanted to try to summarise, as the initial post was long anyway. We did have some good moments on his visit. Although he wanted to play on his device all the time, and this is what he does at home, I didn’t let him. We had several trips out to English heritage / national trust spots, and he got really engaged with some of these places. There were certainly moments of upset, mostly at the amount of walking involved, but he did seem to enjoy learning about some of the history of these places. I got him involved in cooking too. He had a go at peeling some potatoes and I didn’t let him use a knife, but he seemed to enjoy mixing and stirring and mashing things– we made some fish fingers and he liked the flouring and breading the fish. I forced him into using a fork to eat fish fingers and mash and though he really mostly used his fingers for the fish, he did use the fork for the mash.

We played a few board games and while things like monopoly and cluedo were too advanced, he enjoyed snakes and ladders and draughts. He also played ludo for the first time and we had fun doing that, but in all cases he got upset whenever he lost a game. I tried to play some football and he did try, but just didn’t have the basic skills. He said he hadn’t done it before. Like with quite a few things, at first he said he didn’t like football, but after a bit of discussion he said he’d just never tried it. He has had some swimming lessons with school, but has not been swimming outside of school. Best I could tell from his version, the normal swimming lesson routine was disrupted with COVID that meant he didn’t get the lessons he was supposed to.

On the topic of showering, on the first morning after breakfast I said I would show him how his shower worked. He said that he doesn’t use the shower, just the bath. He has never had a shower. It didn’t seem to be out of any particular fear or inability, it just wasn’t a thing they did. When I pushed he says his mum gives him a bath every Sunday evening, and he was very matter of fact about it. I didn’t push it further.

With the supervising of teeth/toilet on an evening – this is what I was told to do by brother, so I did it. I do not have any experience of him wetting the bed, and although I did watch him brush his teeth, I did stand outside the bathroom while he used it. During the day he would use the toilet fine, but would sometimes need to be reminded – you could tell he needed to go because he kept grabbing at his crotch and doing a sort of hopping dance.

The thing that stood out as most unusual for me was not being able to ride a bike. He does own one but, he says, has never been taught to ride it. I find this especially odd as my brother used to mountain bike a lot. During his first marriage, we went on camping / riding holidays together with both families - he has two adult daughters from his previous marriage, a few years older than mine. My brother had an affair with my now SIL and that led to a messy divorce, and he rarely saw/sees the girls – they do not get along with my SIL at all. B doesn’t have any sort of relationship with them.

We moved away for work about the same time as the divorce was going on and B was born a year later and I have not been as involved in his life as I should have, something which I am now starting to regret. I feel like by the end of the 3 days with us some things were getting better – the outbursts were less frequent and he had stopped asking to go on his ipad when he knew I was going to say no, and I did get him to concede in using a fork twice (though stabbing was still an issue). With that in mind and, depending on how the first part of the conversation with my brother goes, I plan to offer to take care of B for a couple of weeks in the summer holidays. I feel like that is enough time to teach him some of the skills he is missing assuming he does not have some learning difficulties (apologies if I am using the wrong terminology – this is not an area I am familiar with). One of mine will be back from uni then too and there are some neighbours with similar aged grandchildren who will be staying, so he can be exposed to some different experiences of how other families and children are, and hopefully that will help his development. Wish me luck!

Sorry to say it but he is being neglected by his parents.
Whether there is a learning need there as well remains to be seen, but you have evidenced that he can quite easily pick things up with a little encouragement.
What 10yr old had never tried to ride a bike, or played football.
Very sad situation and his parents need addressing

I would offer to take him for a couple of weeks but not run the risk of the parents stopping it because they feel you are judging your parenting.

iPad and TV pretty normal (have SS12). So is light on at night (we have a nightlight) and TV whilst falling asleep (not something I love but is a throw over from mums house with younger siblings so respect it).

SS12 now uses knife and fork because he’s been taught to and how it’s not acceptable to use your fingers outside of finger food, but would totally still use fingers given half an opportunity.

At this age beige food is life, no matter what I have tried!

as for the shower, being smelly, bath once a week crap, hell to the no!!!! Neither house will tolerate that here.

SS has friends, he sees them at school and they sometimes do stuff after school for a bit, but outside of school seems to be gaming and talking to friends online rather than meeting in person. Some of this is possibly due to him not doing activities, which he has expressed an interest in and we have advised we will support, however, I think after an experience that upset SS when he did do footie, it’s put mum off also encouraging it, whereas we would perhaps have pushed him to overcome it more (but, TBF, we weren’t with him when he got upset).

So, bottom line is that some things are very much normal, other things are due to child, their personality and some are upbringing at home.

Normal for my 9 Yr old girl other then she isn't that fussed with an ipad or TV in general. Prefers to not use cutlery. Under assessment for adhd & asd.

My dd is 13 and cannot ride a bike or tie shoe laces. We tried teaching her many times, but due to her dyspraxia it didn’t work out. It does sound as though your nephew is nd in some capacity.

Thanks for the update op, he is lucky
to have you.
What is SIL like With you? Will
she chat with you?

That's a tough one.

Reliance on electronics, getting tearful, getting tearful when challenged (flat battery, meal not as epxected), afraid of the dark, wetting the bed, are all normal-enough 10 year old behaviour.

Not being able to get dressed, use a knife or fork - could be motor skill issues.

Not washing, no veg, no activities, being overweight seem like poor lifestyle choices.

No friends - seems a combination of the above.

But at age 10 - surely he goes to school? Schools do and have a responsibility to assess and monitor pupils. It's usually where most problems are identified, when parents' don't identify them.

I'd chat to mum and dad and ask if they're getting support through the school and if there's anyway you can help more e.g. nephew comes to visit more regularly for a weekend.

Because then you help support one issue at a time - like learning to use a fork as a game, or going swimming, or out to a petting zoo, or bath time fun with toys in the bath.

You would be surprised what lazy parenting can cause! No interaction so no social skills, no teaching to ride a bike or use cutlery so that will cause fine and gross motor skill problems, eating lots of shit cause a restricted diet it all adds up and adds up. Which is why there are lots of children that are undiagnosed because of people that are poor parents. I am not for one minute saying they are all like that but it does cause problems for the genuine cases of children that do have ASD or ADHD therefore taking a long time for genuine children to be diagnosed.

This is not normal behaviour.

i would thread very carefully saying this to your brother. If you could pick one thing - like his fine motor skills/ and say an occupational therapist really helped your friends son. Definitely don’t sound like you are critical. Prehaps it is more a case of asking questions - the school must be asking some questions about this child.

It’s lovely that you want to stay part of his life and it seems like you gave him lovely experiences this weekend.

Never been taken swimming or taught to ride a bike is really poor parenting by 10 imo. Unless he's tried it when young and they all decided to postpone... but just sounds lazy to me. Do they do anything to parent him? Teach him anything at all?

You're in a tough place but so glad he has you.

I would thread very carefully too OP. Your intentions are the best but at the same time it's clear you're very critical of your DB's and SIL's parenting. Perhaps this is with good reason, but I'd be wary of rushing to judgement.

I have a child who has asd, adhd, dyspraxia and a number of other diagnoses. It was and is necessary to adapt my parenting for him. The usual parenting techniques simply don't work most of the time. it's been a long process of learning what suits best, with support from the relevant services.

I know for sure that relatives seeing me deal with things have sometimes thought I was daft...there have been definite vibes of 'oh let me have him for a week, I'll soon sort him out'. I think because he doesn't have an intellectual disability they assumed they could parent him as a neurotypical child. They would have learned otherwise soon enough, but I couldn't do it to DC of course. But it was so upsetting to realise they thought I was doing a bad job as a mother. I am still upset by it really.

Anyway, I'm sensing a bit of this type of judgement here. The first very important thing is to get to know your nephew, find out what he needs exactly. You've only had him a few days! Supporting your DB and SIL sounds great and is perhaps badly needed. But trying to take over or alienating them does not sound good at all.

Please thread lightly if you really want to help him.

The inability to ride a bike, sports in general is very common with autism. As the vestibular area in the ear is underdeveloped so they feel like they are losing control when they have to do activities that requires balancing. i found that swimming works well with autists-- football, biking, climibing, gymnastics a lot harder. Ergotherpay will help this.

Overall IMO he has autism. Bath once a week is fine until he hits puberty, and I found (my child same age with autism, dyspraxia, sensory processing and AHDH) showers do not work well for them. they have to stand up and maintain balance. They are more rested playing with toys in the bath (mine will stay in the bath for an hour for downtime). Also skin disorders are VERY common with autism (dry skin, rashes, eczma, etc) so too many baths are not a good idea. And if they needs more baths for downtime, get a special soap for dry skin (and only clean the important bits, no need to use all over), epsom salts.

Mine also still has a lot of trouble with service (knives, forks) so I do not make them use them at home. They are in a private school now so he has lunch with their peers, and they uses service there and that is fine and enough. When in public school, they would come home for 2 hours at lunch to get a break as the class was too big and they were unable to support their medical needs.

Mine also still needed help with wiping until the age of 9. Normal. They do not have the fine motor skills.

My experience is also they need a lot of unconstructed downtime to calm the nervous system when being in groups AND when switching tasks. While many say structure is needed, too much is a problem and the real issue is they need to verbalize to process, so talking out loud while playing, reading books, things to trigger the imagination to get the break from switching tasks/being in groups/trying to mask with NT's. Small school class is a must.

Sure device use is an issue, yet what content is he watching? Sure, mine uses devices more than they should, however they watch a lot of history, geography and science documentaries-- things related to the special interest. Very little crap videos (he can only access YT with massive restrictions, is not allowed on SM nor access to a web browser

My experience as well is let them go at their pace. If they cannot wipe, help them. They cannot cut food, cut it or let them eat with their hands. they want a bath and not a shower, bath it is. Give them plenty of unconstructed downtime for play to process. Board games are good, and yes, autists are much worse at losing. So a skilled therapist would be helpful here to help him,

Also a therapist who specialized in CBT or DBT-- I found this to be a life saver. As they help with learning strategies and skills to manage without masking to calm the nervous system down. Once a week is good and for many years as the therapist should also support the family (ours is amazing).

Also remember psychologically/emotionally, autists are anywhere from 4 to 7 years emotionally younger than their peers. So a 10 year old is still around 5-6 years old emotionally. 21 year olds are around 14-15 years old.

It is not fair nor appropriate to force their nervous system (or who they are) to comply with the NT (neurotypical) world. We would not tell someone wheelchair bound to just get up and walk, would we? Same for autists.