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Thread 42 Sunak : Ping Pong with the Enemies of the People

1000 replies

DuncinToffee · 22/04/2024 08:58

Previous thread
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5049813-thread-41-how-many-more-mps-will-sunak-lose?page=40&reply=134717150

OP posts:
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83
Notonthestairs · 22/04/2024 14:11

You can't have a functioning justice system without defence and prosecution lawyers and the Law Society have been sounding warnings about this for a long time.

2018

www.lawgazette.co.uk/practice/criminal-defence-solicitors-facing-extinction/5065695.article
2022
www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/no-future-in-criminal-defence-juniors-tell-law-society/5112674.article
2024

www.lawsociety.org.uk/campaigns/criminal-justice/criminal-duty-solicitors#:~:text=However%2C%20the%20workforce%20is%20getting,2017%20%E2%80%93%20a%2026%25%20drop.

Add in shortages of appropriate judges and available (and useable) courts.

Notonthestairs · 22/04/2024 14:13

Sorry forgot this -

A critical shortage of criminal barristers doing rape and serious sexual offence (RASSO) cases looks set to get worse, a landmark survey has revealed - with poor remuneration and wellbeing driving the looming exodus.

Six in 10 prosecutors and five in 10 defence barristers blamed insufficient pay for refusing to do RASSO work. Half refused due to poor wellbeing. Nearly two-thirds of prosecutors will not be reapplying to remain on Crown Prosecution Service panels. Two-thirds of defence counsel want to quit.

www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/landmark-survey-reveals-mass-exodus-of-specialist-rape-lawyers/5118720.article

Notonthestairs · 22/04/2024 14:16

A perennial lack of funding was also raised repeatedly by CPS staff in the report. The government’s investment in Soteria has not erased the damage done during the post-2010 austerity years when CPS budgets were slashed and its staff reduced by 30% by 2019. As one lawyer put it to the report’s authors: “Please just fund the [CPS] properly.”

https://amp.theguardian.com/law/2024/mar/11/cps-report-makes-for-grim-reading-and-its-only-the-start

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 14:18

pointythings · 22/04/2024 13:48

So the lack of prosecution for rape due to underfunding of the courts is Labour's fault now? The closure of refuges due to cuts in council funding is Labour's fault? Everything that has gone wrong for women in the past 14 years is due to the GRA? Oh FFS.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion.

L1ttledrummergirl · 22/04/2024 14:20

Omg, I avoid fwr nowadays as you can't have a decent conversation. If I want to go hash out my GC credentials then I'll happily dive back in.

There is no reason that it has to spill over into every bloody thread, and joining a long standing conversation to continually insist that they change the subject to something that's being discussed elsewhere is downright rude. There are other places that this conversation is being had- why would you want to impose it in a space that is meant for something different.

It's incredibly disrespectful to women to assume that we have nothing else in our silly little heads and seriously pisses me off that it's undermining the argument by being shoe horned into everything. You are diluting your cause, turning people off and devaluing womens rights.

@Lion400 give it a rest- at least on these threads. We get it, you feel passionate but you are also tone deaf and coming across as rude.

Bigcoatlady · 22/04/2024 14:21

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 13:41

Not correct.

Obviously the current gvt are letting lots of people down.

But the situation with the law related to women’s rights in this country at the moment comes down to the fck up Labour made when they were in power. Putting into law a ridiculous Act based on social constructs as opposed to biological fact.

Added to current gender ideology scandals.

So Labour are responsible. And Labour know it.

Edited

OK once again for people who just won't accept chronology and law:

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation. Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years.

And feminists have wasted that time spaffing their energy up the wall moaning about a complete non-issue with transwomen which they could resolve by pulling their fucking fingers out and doing some volunteering as trustees and ensuring that services were women only if they wanted. But they preferred to moan on the internet and go on marches and donate to crowdfunders. Julie Bindel, JK Rowling, and literally every halfwit on FWR on here deserves a slow handclap for their participation in the 'gender ideology' delusion because that's precisely what the patriarchy wanted us to believe whilst they went around dismantling the rights of women starting with the poorest women of all.

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 14:25

@pointythings to help you out. I’d made 2 posts referring to males being in female safe spaces. One where a lady’s go has been raped, was not about to attend make free rape crisis meetings; and another where a male is in charge of a rape crisis centre in Edinburgh.

I posted links to both of these things.

Both of them are a result of the GRA from Labour. It is why it’s all such a mess now. It is why women cannot have safe spaces (or simply, spaces) without males within them.

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 14:26

L1ttledrummergirl · 22/04/2024 14:20

Omg, I avoid fwr nowadays as you can't have a decent conversation. If I want to go hash out my GC credentials then I'll happily dive back in.

There is no reason that it has to spill over into every bloody thread, and joining a long standing conversation to continually insist that they change the subject to something that's being discussed elsewhere is downright rude. There are other places that this conversation is being had- why would you want to impose it in a space that is meant for something different.

It's incredibly disrespectful to women to assume that we have nothing else in our silly little heads and seriously pisses me off that it's undermining the argument by being shoe horned into everything. You are diluting your cause, turning people off and devaluing womens rights.

@Lion400 give it a rest- at least on these threads. We get it, you feel passionate but you are also tone deaf and coming across as rude.

This is the only thread I’ve been on where people have been overtly offensive and rude to me.

Bigcoatlady · 22/04/2024 14:27

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 14:25

@pointythings to help you out. I’d made 2 posts referring to males being in female safe spaces. One where a lady’s go has been raped, was not about to attend make free rape crisis meetings; and another where a male is in charge of a rape crisis centre in Edinburgh.

I posted links to both of these things.

Both of them are a result of the GRA from Labour. It is why it’s all such a mess now. It is why women cannot have safe spaces (or simply, spaces) without males within them.

Neither of those things have anything to do with the GRA as I have explained at length above citing the relevant provisions of the statute. Please could you retract this.

IClaudine · 22/04/2024 14:28

FFS @Lion400 , can you make your own thread if you want to focus on these issues.

You are barging into a long running series of threads and attempting to derail to suit your agenda.

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 14:28

@Bigcoatlady

‘And feminists have wasted that time spaffing their energy up the wall moaning about a complete non-issue with transwomen which they could resolve by pulling their fucking fingers out and doing some volunteering as trustees and ensuring that services were women only if they wanted. But they preferred to moan on the internet and go on marches and donate to crowdfunders. Julie Bindel, JK Rowling, and literally every halfwit on FWR on here deserves a slow handclap for their participation in the 'gender ideology' delusion because that's precisely what the patriarchy wanted us to believe whilst they went around dismantling the rights of women starting with the poorest women of all’

Wow. That’s lot. Another few insults. Tick.

IClaudine · 22/04/2024 14:29

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 14:26

This is the only thread I’ve been on where people have been overtly offensive and rude to me.

Feel free to report any rude or offensive posts. By my account the only person who has had posts removed recently is you.

countrygirl99 · 22/04/2024 14:30

Looks like an opinion. Women are still allowed to disagree with each other.

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 14:30

IClaudine · 22/04/2024 14:28

FFS @Lion400 , can you make your own thread if you want to focus on these issues.

You are barging into a long running series of threads and attempting to derail to suit your agenda.

Honestly, I don’t want to make another thread about it. You’re right there’s room for all.

But if people make an incorrect comment or an insult, or an accusation - they must understand it will be addressed.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 14:30

Bigcoatlady · 22/04/2024 14:21

OK once again for people who just won't accept chronology and law:

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation. Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years.

And feminists have wasted that time spaffing their energy up the wall moaning about a complete non-issue with transwomen which they could resolve by pulling their fucking fingers out and doing some volunteering as trustees and ensuring that services were women only if they wanted. But they preferred to moan on the internet and go on marches and donate to crowdfunders. Julie Bindel, JK Rowling, and literally every halfwit on FWR on here deserves a slow handclap for their participation in the 'gender ideology' delusion because that's precisely what the patriarchy wanted us to believe whilst they went around dismantling the rights of women starting with the poorest women of all.

Thank you x

BIossomtoes · 22/04/2024 14:31

@Lion400, please could I ask you to be respectful of these threads and regular posters to them? You know that posts like yours are unwelcome here yet you continue to make them. Regular posters to these threads over the last two years have had an unspoken understanding to leave this issue at the door, there’s plenty of room elsewhere on MN for this discussion to take place. Please will you read the room?

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 14:31

IClaudine · 22/04/2024 14:29

Feel free to report any rude or offensive posts. By my account the only person who has had posts removed recently is you.

😂 you know why? Because I don’t report them. I like to keep them there.

BIossomtoes · 22/04/2024 14:32

And, yes, thank you very much @Bigcoatlady.

IClaudine · 22/04/2024 14:32

BIossomtoes · 22/04/2024 14:31

@Lion400, please could I ask you to be respectful of these threads and regular posters to them? You know that posts like yours are unwelcome here yet you continue to make them. Regular posters to these threads over the last two years have had an unspoken understanding to leave this issue at the door, there’s plenty of room elsewhere on MN for this discussion to take place. Please will you read the room?

This. Please could you respect this @Lion400 ?

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 14:33

BIossomtoes · 22/04/2024 14:31

@Lion400, please could I ask you to be respectful of these threads and regular posters to them? You know that posts like yours are unwelcome here yet you continue to make them. Regular posters to these threads over the last two years have had an unspoken understanding to leave this issue at the door, there’s plenty of room elsewhere on MN for this discussion to take place. Please will you read the room?

Please will you read the posts?

Honestly, I don’t want to make another thread about it. You’re right there’s room for all.

But if people make an incorrect comment or an insult, or an accusation - they must understand it will be addressed.

Bigcoatlady · 22/04/2024 14:34

@Lion400 I am just deeply offended by your slandering the Labour party by suggesting that legislation they passed is responsible for the delivery of services to women in 2024. Those of us who have been trying to deliver services to women in this period think there has been a total loss of perspective here. Personally yes I think women should be able to access group therapy without transwomen present if they wish. I don't know why Survivors Network offer group therapy to people who self-ID as women - there is no legal requirement on them to do that. But it has nothing to do with Labour legislation and the fact that one woman in Brighton couldn't get group therapy without a transwoman present is a drop in the ocean compared to the fact that not a single woman in the 'medium sized Northern city' I work in can get any rape crisis support whatsoever. If I wanted to spend nearly £100k crowdfunding something I'd crowdfund sorting that out not suing a charity in Brighton.

L1ttledrummergirl · 22/04/2024 14:34

So now you are telling us off like naughty children.

I don't say this often because I try to nice, and inclusive, but your refusal to listen is something else.

We have asked you to be mindful of your tone.
We have asked you to be mindful of the topic.
We have tried nicely to tell you that you are an irrelevant irritance.

At the risk of being deleted: grow up and engage like an adult human female or fuck off.

IClaudine · 22/04/2024 14:37

I am starting to suspect @Lion400 wants to get these threads taken down. Don't let's fall into the trap of giving them an excuse to do so.

DuncinToffee · 22/04/2024 14:41

Also we will run out of title ideas when these threads fill up too quickly

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Lion400 · 22/04/2024 14:42

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