Thread 42 Sunak : Ping Pong with the Enemies of the People

[DuncinToffee]

Previous thread
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5049813-thread-41-how-many-more-mps-will-sunak-lose?page=40&reply=134717150

Yup be my guest

Also I selfishly really want that in chat because it deserves a thread of its own. Epic content

On behalf of the tofu eating Guardian reading wokeariti I would like a return to the focus on the government of the day and not genderwoo Cheersthanksslot

@AdamRyan I agree with you so hard.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5060054-the-history-of-the-gender-recognition-actand-labours-role

There we are. See you all over there!

Great idea

Thanks. I need to read through your response in more detail. You may be correct you may not. It’s a detailed list (thank you) that requires more thoughtful response than the usual. I’m working on a couple of reports this afternoon and will read up later. Thanks for being less offensive.

And thanks @AdamRyan for starting a dedicated thread. I might learn something new, and so might others. I hope everyone has a reasonable balanced approach, rather than simple insults and accusations.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/04/uk-airlines-and-aviation-authorities-should-not-facilitate-unlawful-removals

“If airlines and aviation authorities give effect to State decisions that violate human rights, they must be held responsible for their conduct,” the experts said.

The Lords is not Sunaks only issue here

The Lords is definitely not the only issue. Farage has just said:

I promise you, not a single person is going to Rwanda. This is a complete charade.

Because it is on the face of the Bill! James Cleverly did not, as with every other bill that enters Parliament make a section 19 statement. Instead he said this;

I am unable to make a statement that, in my view, the provisions of the Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill are compatible with the Convention rights, but the Government nevertheless wishes the House to proceed with the Bill.

Oh no, Farage/Braverman/Jenrick etc will be back to the rubbish about leaving the ECHR and drafting a new bill of British rights, which is a nonsense because -

The Surpreme Court has held unanimously that the government’s Rwanda scheme (under which asylum seekers would be sent to Rwanda to have their claims decided there) is unlawful. The court found that there were substantial grounds for believing that asylum seekers sent to Rwanda would face a real risk of ill-treatment as a result of “refoulement” (being returned) to their country of origin. Refoulement is prohibited by numerous international law instruments, including the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), the UN Refugee Convention, the UN Convention against Torture, and the UN International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Those instruments have been given effect in UK national law by the Human Rights Act 1998, the Asylum and Immigration Appeals Act 1993, the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 and the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants etc) Act 2004. The Supreme Court was at pains therefore to point out that the case did not hinge solely on the ECHR or the Human Rights Act.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/comment/supreme-court-rwanda-rishi-sunak-response

😂😂😂

There is a huge question over the legality of an airline's actions, the pilots actions, I facilitating a beach of the ECHR. Think of the individual and corporate liability of that.

If the bill passes and if RAF personnel are forced to man the flights, could other countries refuse to allow the planes in their airspace?

This may be a stupid question, but it was something I thought of the other day.

It’s a very good point. I hadn’t thought of that.

Sunak has invited his MPs for drinks in his office tonight

I'm hoping the military refuse. They know better than anyone that 'just following orders' is no defence when it comes to breaching people's human rights, regardless of what the law of the land says at the time.

not just the ECHR - the UN has said airlines risk breaching International Human Rights

UN experts warn airlines over Sunak’s Rwanda scheme | Evening Standard

They won’t. Not that I think it will come to that.

Pilots have slightly odd status legally in terms of what they can permit on the plane. I don't know if it extends to the military but you have to consider the objective. It is NOTHING to do with any military objective and therefore whether usual conventions apply to pilots in war is up for debate

Yes please and thanks.

To talk about these things only intellectually and abstractedly ignores those of us who have amore emotional and personal attachment to the issue.

I hide the FWR for a reason and regard this as a reasonably safe space.
There is literally a whole board set aside for people to champion a view point on GC beliefs. A side effect of it is that many posters over there genuinely believe all women share their viewpoint. I'd hope it'd be at least salutary and instructive to learn that isn't the case at all.

I'm sure you take it all very seriously IRL lion but on here you are simply coming across as a provocateur who is enjoying the game. I guess it's fun to rile and upset others. I feel that if I told you you have genuinely upset me it would make not one jot of difference to you. But there you have it.

One of my year 13 today wondered out loud if there is anyone at all that Rishi Sunak actually likes or values. Interesting question.

I feel he values his family @Piggywaspushed, genuinely. Perhaps some old friends, or mentors who have helped him get where he is. Maybe he values people who have managed to obtain wealth despite being from a poorer background? It’s definitely a common opinion that you can work hard and “make something of yourself” - a central tenet of Conservatism, in fact.

I don’t think he’s a sociopath tbh, just so privileged he can’t feel empathy for people not born into the same privilege as himself. Of course, it doesn’t follow that being born with wealth, good schooling and opportunities makes you incapable of empathy, but in his case I think it is true.

Yes, absolutely think the issue is a lack of empathy and a real awkwardness around that.