Thread 42 Sunak : Ping Pong with the Enemies of the People

[DuncinToffee]

Previous thread
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5049813-thread-41-how-many-more-mps-will-sunak-lose?page=40&reply=134717150

They must be praying that giving advance notice of their plans for internment of immigrants means many of those immigrants can disappear for a while, because they don’t have the resources to process their removal to Rwanda. Or indeed, the flights or personnel to administer it all. They could have had the resources for a workable immigration claim process that was also efficient and humane, but they pissed it all away paying Rwanda to nod along and pretend it was going to happen one day.

I think many people see through the Rwanda bill, they see 100k crossing in the last 2 or 3 years and then read that Rwanda will take 200 a month.

Legal migration is also something people see as another Tory failure...

Right wing frothers are never going to vote Labour, migration is also not the only issue.. people will vote Labour because the Tories have had 14 years to improve things yet nothing has, nothing at all, for most people, everything has got worse.
Its this "lived experience" that is doing for them, issues with nhs, GP's, social care even pot holes were things they read about/happened to other people, now its happening to them....

I don't there are significant numbers of floating voters, sure polls will close down a bit but unless something out the blue happens........

......I'm hoping the Tory party will be destroyed, the way the old Liberals were in the 1920s.

Its this "lived experience" that is doing for them,

It's curious that the singularly missed (?) fact about 1997 is it was exactly 18 years after 1979. For a country which never goes for a complex solution when an easy one is available. I find that interesting.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tory-conservative-policies-rishi-sunak-b1154321.html

I think so. Ireland will not be able to make a lawful return to the U.K.

What does the Windsor framework say ?

Also, for the purposes of EU legislation NI has to align with the EU.

I suspect Ireland will be able to bat asylum seekers back to NI and it's the UK governments job to keep them from the mainland.

Windsor Framework is customs, surely, not people?

I'm hoping the Tory party will be destroyed, the way the old Liberals were in the 1920s.

I don't think the 2024 GE on its own will destroy them, but their reaction to it could.
2019 didn't destroy Labour because they elected a pragmatic centrist Leader, does the Tory party have the wit to do similar or will they go with a far right headbanger, thus bringing about their own demise.

Speaking of 2019, can you guess who Chris Phip mention this morning when being interviewed by Kueensburg?

He also told an absolute shocker of a lie, blamed Austerity on Labour who left the country bankrupt, the R4 news tonight did NOT correct that!

I wonder if the Tories will make ROI trying to return migrants a wedge issue between themselves, Labour and the EU ? only the Tories bat for the UK... sort of thing.

I wonder also what the EU themselves will do? they will have to back ROI.

Yes but Lab got 200 MPs, if the Tories drop below 100 or even lower, what then?

The situation with Ireland is complex because it will be the same as the UK had with France, ie there is no functioning return system. So maybe there is a deal there, but the situation for asylum is different.

The agreement between EU and UK for NI is movement of goods, not people.

If asylum seekers in Ireland make a claim, they could be returned to the safe third country. But the UK is arguably not. And all that needs to happen is that an asylum seeker does not claim in the U.K. (Rwanda makes this unattractive) or withdraw the claim and then cross the border to Ireland. The system breaks down

I don't think the number is as important as reflecting and learning that taking extreme positions and being consistently dishonet does not work.
Whether the remaining MPs are capable of such reflection and being honest in demonstrating that they are a changed party is a different question.

It is perhaps more likely that they will elect a more extreme leader (Sunak himself or indeed Johnson are not that right wing, but for reasons best known to themselves are so weak they have to pander to the far right of the party) in which case they will guarantee not winning the election after next.

Maybe Ireland needs to create an Act to say that the UK is a safe country for asylum seekers?

The difference here is its a land border with zero checks etc (GFA)

Neither UK or ROI can enforce or stop anything without border control.... and Sunak will put the Tory party way above the GFA, the EU, let alone the ROI.
He has already said they will not accept returns unless the EU/France does too....

Should this escalate (which i think Sunak will ensure) i hope labour have a firm response.

Thats what ROI plan to do on Tuesday but what then.....

But that cannot work; UK does not have to accept Irish domestic law. It can refuse the return immediately.

Also the point is that Ireland cannot just pop over the border with a group of asylum seekers to return. They are signatories to the EU Charter which guarantees the rights of asylum seekers. They would be breaching their own rules to do it.

The other thing is basic. The UK would make no provision to detain them and just permit the border to do its work.

In which case what does the Common Travel Area say ?

CTA is the issue! It won't override the commitments given to the EU.

I suppose the mystery here is that bevcause NI is part of the UK, there will be no checks on ferries etc of passports?

I mean otherwise how do a lot of asylum seekers get to NI? It is something of a mystery. But it won't be rights via the CTA which is citizen based?

In other words to use the CTA, you need to be British or Irish. Asylum seekers will be neither of those

how do a lot of asylum seekers get to NI? It is something of a mystery.

Do you need to show documents leaving the mainland ?

It depends. You need ID to get on a plane, same as all domestic flights, but not on the ferry.

This is my question? I have travelled between England and NI and the answer is "not always".

I mean the ferry will have bugger all checks. You can just get in a lorry