Thread 40: Sunak -failure to plan, or planning to fail?

[DuncinToffee]

Or will the fuckitty fuckwits please fuck off

previous thread
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5025316-thread-39-sunak-government-by-gaslight?page=40&reply=133987967

credits notonthestairs and dontcallmelen

Funny really, if Labour said they were going to fund this that and the other everyone would be commenting on their magic money pot and how Labour always run up the national debt, even though nobody has managed that quite like the Tories.

I know the Tories have totally screwed the country and will ramp this up over the next few months but if Lab are to avoid despondency and another tory govt in 5 years time, they need to be a lot more adventurous as we approach manifesto time.

Let's wait and see when the manifestos come out, shall we? The Tories don't seem to have much to promise other than But Labour.

The current incarnation of the Labour Party doesn't fill me with joy, I must say. But on the other hand, better not to promise things that can't be delivered.

Having said that, Starmer is an intelligent man. Perhaps he is playing the long game? It is clear that the English electorate doesn't like anything too left wing and that is the electorate he needs right now to win a GE. He doesn't want to frighten the horses.

I may be trying to give myself false hope, though. One thing I wish Starmer would do, and which I think would be really popular, is renationalise the water industry.

Up until last year, we had the conservatives in charge of our county council.

Roads, health, education, skills, immigration, real affordable housing - esp to rent have been decimated.

I have a 15 minute drive to work, not one road is properly surfaced,.
The schools (except the gramnars) are underfunded, we had a 10 hour wait in a&e last year, my relative was over 30hrs the year before.
Social housing is in short supply, and I know of one person who was housed in a building that was unfit for habitation- they were only moved after a charity became involved.

The planning department no no longer responds to breaches of planning, social services are stretched, GPs are leaving due to stress and food bank use has increased.

This is what the conservatives have achieved where I live after 14 years. I know there will be no magic money tree, it's going to be a big hill to climb to repair the damage- but I'm hoping labour can cut the rot and turn the course that we are on.

It's easy for Sunak to ignore the state of the roads, he flies everywhere, or to ignore the NHS as he goes private, and why worry about policing for the general population when you can hire your own.

I'm more worried about the conservatives being given more time, to take more from the country.

Funny how the Tories don't advertise their good work in your area @L1ttledrummergirl !

Totally agree with you @IClaudine particularly about renationalising water. He could put Feargal Sharkey in charge!

@L1ttledrummergirl i totally agree, our Tory council in Cornwall is awful, very wasteful too.
Its a microcosm of what they done to the entire country...

But how can Starmer get people to vote for him if he says "there will be no more money for councils for a Parliament"

Thats not going to undo anything at all, if Lab want a 2nd term, they will have to make real changes to the UK and how its run, i really hope they have these plans.

I understand the questions that will be asked of Labour spending plans (though no interviewer seems to ask Tory ministers how they will fund NI cuts or free child places or anything at all)

Its the lack of hope in Labours messaging that i find depressing.

I would love for Labour to come out and say that Brexit was a mistake and to stop saying they will make it work.

@DuncinToffee yes! That would make me very happy.

I don't think it would be a good idea to offer things that aren't deliverable. Labour need to be open and honest and admit there is a mountain to climb to repair the damage and that it's going to take time. At least Labour will not behave like a bunch of incompetent screaming schoolboys and will direct what money there is a lot better.

Obviously, Blair brought over a lot of non natural Labour voters to his team but that's along time ago and the current Labour lot do seem to be in a permanent tailspin of anxiety about voting patterns and Labour Brexit heartlands (I mean anyone could tell you a Labour voter in Mansfield is not the same as a Labour voter in Brighton) and women's votes, and the business vote, and the 'North London' vote and the hipsters and the wokerati, and the anti Brexiters, and the different versions of feminism, and what to say about Palestine, seems permanently confusing to them. And they spend little time courting the actual socialist vote because I guess they think there aren't enough left to matter (probably correct but affects policies). Thsi is why some people favour your Lee Andersons - he certainly isn't mealy mouthed.

They do seem consistently anxious and constantly policing their own MPs- and I don't recall this lack of confidence in Blair who had charisma and an ego that could be seen from outer space.

And, yes, I do know that this is because Labour always needs to be 'correct and virtuous'....

Whilst i agree with the general point, the danger is, without a slightly more positive message, Labour are in danger of people not seeing the point in voting for them.

Many people, even hardened Tory voters can see the country is in a mess and people want change.

If they don't see Labour are offering this, then we may well be looking at a low voter turn out.

Yes, this reflects my views. As yet we don't know what they might inherit.
Misleading voters would put them in a similar position to the Conservatives, with the same backlash.

Exactly that. The thing Starmer is saying that really resonates with me is that he will bring hope. It’s so long since we had that. I definitely have it. Look what the Attlee government inherited and what it achieved.

This is , after all, one of the reasons Obama swept to power - a positive message of change.

See also, again - charisma.

They do seem consistently anxious and constantly policing their own MPs- and I don't recall this lack of confidence in Blair who had charisma and an ego that could be seen from outer space

Yes. This is very true. I think Labour right now is being over cautious. Blair knew the country was desperate for change and he harnessed that in a way that Starmer doesn't seem to able to at the moment.

I thought I would look up the the 1997 turn out- it was 71.3%.

Nothing Starmer says fills me with hope of change, even on the NHS, its just we will use the private sector.... fantastic & where will the private sector get the extra staff from to carry this proposed increase in private treatments from...

Attlee made Corbyn look like a member of Tufton Street....

"Labour in 1945 presented the country with a radical programme, including the nationalisation of coal, railways and steel; the formation of a National Health Service; and a nationwide extensive housing programme. Labour won the election with a majority of 160 parliamentary seats"

I find it bad enough living in Tory dystopia, I flatly refuse to be negative about the prospect of a Labour government because it’s not promising utopia. 1997 was coming different because the country wasn’t broke and 1945 different again. Maybe we should wait until we actually have a Labour government before we start picking holes in it.

This is how I feel, I just wish Labour would be a bit more braver & yes give something to hope for like Attlee did I dunno they seem so scared of being accused of being in any way spendthrifts.
also really wish they would re nationalised at least the water, although I would dearly love all utilities/transport to be renationalised & Yy just bloody say brexit isn’t working & a serious grown up discussion needs to be had.
last election I stayed up for most of the night was 1997, remember going to work the next day & you could feel the excitement it was palpable.

I do see what you are saying Blossomtoes, but Starmer has a huge lead, he needs to be less scared of being a little bit radical. But let's see what the manifesto says!

Agree & Labour being truthful on the mess they will inherit is a good thing but I would really like even just a couple of more radical ideas.

I once read something interesting about political messaging and the etymology of the word 'hope'. I bet I wouldn't find it again now. The essence was it is a wishy washy word which Christians have manipulated over centuries to encourage people to live passively on Earth in the 'hope of better times ahead' (basically when dead ... sure and certain hope and all that) and as a political word it doesn't sound positive or certain to all. It was compared to whether you read 'all that was left was Hope' in Pandora's Box as a positive or negative thing.... (Natalie Haynes does a good job of explaining that in her book Pandora's Jar')

I'm sure it said words like 'belief' and 'pledge' and 'yes we can!' were more powerful and less weaselly.

And it is fascinating because I did like Starmer's speech on hope but since then I have been mulling phrases like 'well,we can but hope' and 'hopefully' and their connotations. I am quite sure his speech writers will have thought long and hard about the word as he used it so much.

The thing about radical ideas announced in advance of a manifesto is that there’s a good chance they’d either be stolen by the Tories or measures would be put in place now to make them harder to achieve. We all know they’re assiduously setting elephant traps. I just want Starmer to reach the election with that Ming vase intact.

Very true Blossom Tories have no shame in either scenario, have vision in my head now of Starmer cradling a Ming vase wrapped in fleece.