Confused about Trans and NonBinary

[CactusMactus]

I am going to get terminologies wrong here... soz in advance.
Friends gown up daughter-at-birth has recently had top surgery to become trans. She has used pronouns 'they/them' for a while and continues to consider themselves non-binary.
I don't understand how that works. Surely if you are trans you have changed from she/her to he/him not she/her to they/them.
Does one transition to non-binary?
Genuin question...

@CactusMactus I don't know why you think you can't be trans and non binary? Surely all non binary by definition are trans? Obviously they started off as whatever they were born, and they 'transitioned' into someone without strong traditional gender characteristics, as that suits the way the feel about themselves better. I understand the notion that someone is 'neither' gender can seem confusing at first, but once you get to know them it will come more naturally.

Another one who throws around bullshit hoping some of it will stick, rather than engaging in an actual argument.

I made my point. It is no one else's business what someone else does to their body. It is not for you to decide if their reasons for doing it are good enough. Women still have to fight to get hysterectomies, or to be sterilised, or to have abortions in some countries, because other people don't think they should be allowed to decide for themselves what they can do with their bodies. If a competent adult female wants to have her breasts removed, then that is her decision. It doesn't matter whether you think her reasons are justified.

It becomes the business of others when they are coerced to lie as a result of an individual adapting their body in order to follow an ideology.

And by that, I mean that if she wants to adapt her body - fine.
If she subsequently demands that others pretend that the bodily adaptation means that she is no longer female - not fine.

Mental illness. Don’t indulge it.

So what about if she wants to remove a limb because she has body integrity disorder? Consenting adult, should be fine right?

None of the other things that you have used in your argument concern identity. They are women's rights. We are not suggesting women should not have autonomy when it comes to birth control, so that is not a strong argument for procedures based on identity.

The 'none of your business' argument is interesting to me (I had said upthread that her being an adult made a difference to my views).
Usually I see things in an intellectual way but in this instance I think I'm swayed by feeling: my DD is neurodivergent and has had consequent mental health struggles. She has dipped a toe into 'trans' (she had two 'they' friends) , eating disorders (somehow she got into 'ana' sites and there was a bit of a school contagion - thank God now over - of dieting) and self-harm (friends again), and all of those issues were because of other people's influence. I don't think that it would ever have occurred to her to try any of them if they weren't lauded on social media and therefore by friends.
It's a social contagion and the vulnerable, like my DD, are simply better off not having loads of people succumbing and also, frankly, not having a load of people who ought to know better, encouraging it as something cool and interesting.

So if someone has a dysphoria about being disabled, should they be allowed to amputate a healthy limb?

Or should medical professionals have a degree of care towards that individual in not allowing this to happen?

Well you live and learn. What is the correct term for making yourself sterile by taking testosterone and other hormones?

No you didn't make any point at all. It becomes society's business as a whole when innocent children are being butchered and sterilised, and when mentally ill teens and adults are being butchered and sterilised. I don't recognise the uncaring world you propose, and I wouldn't want to live in such a cruel, uncaring world where people don't care for others and take a stand to protect those people.

If a competent adult female wants to have her breasts removed, then that is her decision. It doesn't matter whether you think her reasons are justified.

And if that competent adult has effectively been groomed into thinking it’s possible to change sex that’s ok? And if they’re actually struggling with autism, trauma or their sexuality and think removing their breasts will help them feel whole, that’s ok too?

My guess is that they are identifying as genderless. Neither male or female.

they 'transitioned' into someone without strong traditional gender characteristics

What are these strong, traditional gender characteristics? Being a tomboy? Being an effeminate boy?
I’d wager that all us have something, even many aspect of their personality which don’t subscribe to stereotypes. Does that make us all non-binary?

It can remove all the breast tissue. It depends entirely on what the person wants or needs.

OP I don't have the spoons right now to join in and explain etc, but you don't have to understand anything, if it's not your child or your own person, you don't even need to worry about it.

You'd be best off researching online from a wide variety of websites, so you can understand what it is, rather than anyone telling you their opinion of what it is.

Abortion is not analogous to trans surgeries. It's almost opposite in fact.

Pregnancy is more dangerous than not being pregnant, especially if unwanted. Abortion is surgery to revert to a less risky bodily state. Trans surgeries start from a healthy bodily state and end with results that can create a lifelong medical patient.

Using abortion rights (something that many women are still denied) in order to argue for the existence of ideologically driven surgeries which disproportionately harm women, is pretty perverse.

It's still no one's business what anyone does with their own body.

You can say this as many times as you want, but as with everything, you can't stop people having opinions about things they believe are wrong/harmful/misguided.

What if you are BORN as someone without strong gender characteristics?

I was born without developed breasts. And as I grew up I played with lego and cars and wore dungarees!

I never grew a cock and I do sometimes wear nail polish, but I'm great at maps and shit at cooking.

Does this make me cis non binary?

@LentilFaculties we all develop at different speeds try not to worry, your cock is probably just a late bloomer. What sort of lego have you been trying? Maybe see if a star wars set helps?

This is exactly why people need to keep challenging trans ideology.

Gender stereotypes harm women. Both the religious/ conservative type (change your personality to suit your sex) and the gender ideology type (change your body to suit your personality).

Both of those positions are regressive.Why would you expect a female dominated site to embrace one of them?

@EileenBilton

You don't really need to understand, you just need to do as you're told

What a stupid and aggressive statement, Of course people need to have an understanding of these issues, they are affecting us all!

@HollyKnight nobody’s business that children are being groomed into normalising self mutilation as adults?

I think you’ll find safeguarding is everyone’s business and everyone’s responsibility- including yours.

If you think you can purge yourself of responsibility for children being sterilised, mutilated, made asexual or unable to function sexually as a result of an ideology, then you are sorely mistaken.

One day you may find yourself unable to sleep at night- at least you should, if you are choosing to ignore the safeguarding concerns around transing children.

I’m ask again. Can someone please link the source showing that MAPS is under the same umbrella as trans please?

It is our business what people do to other people's bodies. None of these young women are chopping their own breasts off - surgeons are doing it. We have rules & regulations about what is appropriate as healthcare and what is legal to buy as cosmetic surgery and even about what 2 consenting adults can do to each other (no one can consent to being cannibalised or killed, for example).