Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

When does mess become child neglect/squalor?

158 replies

AmysFriend · 02/02/2024 09:48

So bear with me, please, this is very long but I want to include as much detail as possible.
I have a friend of many years, let's call her Amy, in her 30s who’s a single parent to three girls aged 3, 5 and 6. Amy and her ex husband split up amicably when she was pregnant with the youngest. The kids go to their dad’s house one night a week and every other weekend and slightly over half of the school holidays. Otherwise they are at home with Amy. Amy works school hours and Saturday mornings from home - she has a computer in the box room set up for this. The girls share the biggest bedroom and Amy is in the medium bedroom. Also in the house are one bathroom, a small kitchen and a living room. There's a table, supposedly for eating at, in the living room. Usually when she's working the girls are at school but on every second Saturday morning they're watching TV/playing on tablets and helping themselves to any snacks or drinks they need while Amy works.

Money isn't abundant but there's enough to pay bills, food, clothes etc and also have a few extras for toys, outings, favourite foods etc. Amy and the girls are mutually affectionate and loving. I'd say they have a lovely bond.

So that's the context. This is the issue. Amy's house is really bad. By arrangement I visit every Thursday morning for a half hour catch-up - Amy takes an early lunch break and we sit and chat. Over the months I noticed that things were getting more and more cluttered and grubby each week but lately it's struck me that I think it's crossed a line. To sit on the sofa, which is a cloth sofa thoroughly stained with juice and food spills, you have to move armfuls of laundry. Some of the laundry is clean, some is dirty but there's no attempt to keep them separate or really keep track of which is which. Amy says to put the laundry on the floor to make room to sit down but the floor is dirty carpet covered in crumbs and hairs and grit and general lack of vacuuming. Vacuuming would be a problem because the floor is cluttered with toys, skateboards, the box for a huge trampoline which the girls got for Christmas but which hasn't been put up yet, and a huge Barbie dollhouse. I'm not sure there’s room to put the trampoline up because the back yard is full of bikes, scooters, a broken bed and one of those Eglu hen pens for their pet chickens.

I decline offers of drinks/food because there are never any clean mugs or plates and Amy will go through to the kitchen to wash some but to do so she'll need to take dirty pans out of the sink and then she won't be able to put the pans on the work surface cos it's covered in food boxes and wet laundry that needs to go in the dryer but there's already clothes in the dryer that she'll need to empty the dryer but all the laundry baskets are already full on the kitchen floor so she throws those clean, dried clothes onto the sofa and then there's nowhere to sit etc etc. You get the idea. No simple domestic action can be performed without dealing with a whole other logjam of domestic actions.

The table to the side of the lounge that's meant for eating at has paperwork and school bags and colouring books and last years uneaten Easter eggs, still boxed!, all over it and the chairs have laundry on them so nobody can sit there. The kids lie on the floor to watch TV and usually sit wherever they can to eat. A lot of food is delivered takeaway - I think because it's so daunting to start to find clean plates and cutlery and pans etc. They also all eat a lot of fruit and raw vegetables. I've never known kids who like munching on a carrot as much as these three.

I don't know what upstairs is like but the stairs up are unvacuumed and have things (books, laundry, shoes) at the sides of every tread.

So to ward off the inevitable questions:

  1. Yes, I have offered to help tidy, clean and sort. Several times. But Amy says she wants to chat when I visit, not do any housework. I've also said that I could come round for a couple of hours one of the weekends the girls are with their dad but she refuses. ‘I’ll get round to it soon.’ I have a lot of pressures on my own time and kids of my own so can't offer much in the way of practical assistance.
  1. Yes, I have explicitly told her that things need to be cleaner and tidier. She laughs it off while agreeing with me.
  1. No, she couldn't afford a cleaner. And also a cleaner wouldn't be able to start cleaning due to the clutter.
  1. No, I don't think Amy is depressed. She's a very cheerful, hilarious, upbeat person who brings sunshine to my life.
  1. Yes, I think she might have ADHD. No, I am not a doctor so this is not a formal diagnosis.
  1. Yes, I'm worried about the kids. They're always clean and tidy looking in their personal appearance so I don't have worries about their personal appearance but I know they have, for instance, missed out on PE at school because a gym kit couldn't be found in time that morning. I suspect Amy fairly often will just buy the kids new clothes rather than trying to get a grasp of the laundry backlog, which obviously then adds to the clutter. This way of living isn't sustainable for them.
  1. Yes I am doubtless a nosy bastard and bad friend for posting this here.

So how worrying is this situation? The kids are bubbly and ebullient and clean when I see them which admittedly isn't all that often, probably once a month or so when I'm picking the middle one up on a Sunday to take to Junior Parkrun with my son. Amy seems pretty content with her life. But there isn't any sign that she's going to want to arrest the ever increasing clutter and grubbiness. What should I do?

What's prompted me to ask now is that yesterday when I arrived with two takeaway coffees and some cookies for us to share (this is my way of pre-empting being offered a cuppa - see above) I noticed that the Costa cups and paper bag from last weeks catch-up snacks were still on the trampoline box which seems to have become a kind of informal seat/coffee table in the living room. Also on the box were several Barbies, a clean potty, a slightly muddy egg from one of the hens, the inevitable clutch of laundry and a pile of paperwork and I thought: this has, I think, crossed a line.

What would you do if anything? Thanks.

OP posts:
AmysFriend · 02/02/2024 09:52

To add: Amy owns the house so there won't be any potential pressure coming from a landlord to keep the place cleaner/tidier.

OP posts:
Octavia64 · 02/02/2024 09:53

There are visual ratings for clutter/hoardings - maybe have a look at these?

hoardingdisordersuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/clutter-image-ratings.pdf

My house gets like that on occasion - but I do then spend a few days getting it back to clean and tidy. (I am physically disabled)

NorthCliffs · 02/02/2024 09:53

An anonymous call to the NSPCC gave my sister the kick up the arse to sort out her house. No idea who could have done such a thing ...

SallyWD · 02/02/2024 09:58

I could have written exactly this about a friend of mine. She also has three kids. The level of dirt and mess is exactly as you describe. I remember the first time I went to her house I couldn't actually believe what I was seeing. It took my brain a while to process all the chaos and mess.
My friend's kids are also very loved, clean, immaculate in appearance but I really feel for them living in that environment. I have to admit I haven't said or done anything.

Aquamarine1029 · 02/02/2024 09:59

I'm sure what your best option is , but I do know that I would not be able to just sit back and let those poor kids live in that filth without doing something big. I would not mince words with Amy, and it may signal the end of the friendship because I think I would have to call SS if she continues to refuse to clean up. It is so, so damaging for children to grow up in a home like that.

AmysFriend · 02/02/2024 09:59

Thanks @Octavia64 . I'd say the kitchen is a 3 on that scale and the living room is a 4.

OP posts:
MichaelAndEagle · 02/02/2024 10:00

Oh dear OP, I really don't know what I'd do.
I suppose if she and the kids are happy and have what they need you probably have to keep it buttoned and ignore it?
Whilst ensuring she knows you are willing to help if she ever wants it.

It will probably become more of an issue as the kids approach teenage years as they will want certain clothes clean and to be able to have friends round.

MichaelAndEagle · 02/02/2024 10:02

Would SS even do anything? I think pretty much if kids have clean clothes, a bed to sleep in, are fed and make it to school each day they'll leave her to it.

Naptrappedmummy · 02/02/2024 10:04

Ok so it sounds filthy and cluttered but to me neglect would be things like smoking inside, broken glass or dog poo in the areas the children go into (inside or outside) bottles of cleaning chemicals left lying around, rotting food on plates, dirty nappies left to fester. Toys everywhere, dirty laundry and unwashed cups/plates (if scraped) isn’t nice at all, but isn’t dangerous (perhaps you could say it’s a fall or fire hazard though).

Are there any dangers you can think of?

You can get people who professionally declutter and clean. Does she have the cash for a one off, 2-day declutter? Would she be open to this? You could even say ‘I used one myself, they’re amazing’ - total lie but might help her feel less offended.

Snowdropsarecoming · 02/02/2024 10:05

It’s not your job as member of the public to make that decision. Your job is to report your concerns and then social workers who are trained and qualified and able to access info which you are not are able to make that decision about what is happening and offer appropriate support.

Octavia64 · 02/02/2024 10:07

If it has been getting gradually worse over months then she probably is aware how bad it is but overwhelmed.

Could you try talking about decluttering podcasts? Not sure what there is but I know there are cleaning ones where you do 15 mins a day.

Realistically it's not at SS level.

MintTwirl · 02/02/2024 10:07

I know someone who had a similar sounding house. The local early help team stepped in after reports and her dc had to go stay with family while it was sorted out.

IfYouDontAsk · 02/02/2024 10:08

I think your only option is to be really blunt.

”Amy, I’m increasingly concerned about the cleanliness of your home. I think it’s at the stage where it’s a health risk to your children. I repeat my offer to spend time helping you to clean and keep on top of things but if you don’t take me up on that offer and the state of the house hasn’t significantly improved in a month, my conscience won’t allow me to be a bystander to your children living in these conditions.

I will need to speak to the children’s school and report what I believe is a safeguarding issue. I am not saying this to hurt you and I’ve thought very carefully before laying things out like this to you, but my concern for the children overrides the risk of this conversation ending our friendship.”

AmandaHoldensLips · 02/02/2024 10:08

The thing is that the children will view this as "normal" because it's what they're used to.

Your friend might be in denial, or overwhelmed, or simply blind to it.

What if you were to take a roll of bin liners with you next time you visit and just bag up whatever is obviously rubbish while chatting to her? Same with bagging up outgrown clothes and unwanted/broken toys.

Small steps can make a big difference. Not making a big deal of it can also help.

Mumoftwo1312 · 02/02/2024 10:11

I had a friend like this. Every room had a narrow gangway between towers of clutter. I tried to sit down on a chair, it had a folded unidentifiable garment on it - it had dried cat sick in it. Her teen daughter was clearly depressed (I'm not saying that the clutter was a cause). There was cocaine dust on one of the surfaces upstairs, left by her ex she'd kicked out weeks before, never since wiped away.

She actually asked me to come help her declutter once. I spent hours, hours one Saturday clearing her junk into bin bags. Stuff that was clearly rubbish or out of date.

She texted me afterwards "thanks I know you meant well but now I can't find my XYZ" [broken or useless thing that she'd had 10 of so I threw away 8...] anyway I hadn't thrown any of the bin bags away so I told her to fish for it.

She attended my wedding soon after but apart from that, I never saw her again. I was furious

ViscousFluidFlow · 02/02/2024 10:11

I love a tidy house and as much as I wouldn’t want to sit in that personally that is not SS intervention time. I do not think you realise what actual squalor is. Imagine going in to a house where you have to wash your boots after leaving.

AmysFriend · 02/02/2024 10:12

I think that might be my approach, @AmandaHoldensLips - brisk and breezy and just 'right, come on, let's clear some of this up while we chat'.

OP posts:
MichaelAndEagle · 02/02/2024 10:13

You say you've mentioned this to her already.
How firmly?

You could try again, but say look, this is getting to the point of being unmanageable for you and is making life much more difficult than it needs to be.
And if she laughs it off persist a little bit whilst continuing to offer to help and reassuring her you don't judge, you know how it can build up, you care about her and her children etc.
Perhaps try again a bit more firmly and see if you get anywhere?

historiccastles · 02/02/2024 10:14

This is something I struggled with as a single mum when my kids were younger. Now that they are older, I've got much more of a handle on it. So I empathise with your friend to a degree but I also know it's something she needs to get a handle on.

A 2 or 3 on the scales shown, as you mentioned, doesn't honestly look that bad to me. You'll notice the people who made that scale see 4+ as a problem. I would say my house is usually a 2 and once a week it'll be a 1 when I've just done a big tidy and clean.

However if rubbish is being left for over a week and dirty laundry is mixed with clean, then that does suggest more of an issue.

Incidentally, I was referred to social services around the time I left my ex-husband. My kids (with very long, thick hair) had recurrent nits I couldn't get rid of and this was the school's main cause for arguing they had concerns about neglect. It did not meet the child protection threshold but they allocated a social worker for support under a child in need plan. She came round a few times, saw the house in probably a 3 state most of the time and never said a word about it. She closed the plan after 2 months saying she didn't think I needed any help. So I very much doubt social services will get involved if the kids are clean.

What helped me was some of my family/friends clubbed together to help me blitz the house and then work out a plan for what needed to be done every day and weekly to keep on top of things.

I still use that plan now, only my kids are older so they do some of the tasks too. It works and helps them see what it takes to keep a home ticking over too. I'm never going to be the owner of a show home and if you come round my house it'll almost never be a 1. But it's manageable and that's what matters. Help your friend get it manageable.

ohididntrealise · 02/02/2024 10:15

Sounds like hoarding may be an issue, but otherwise it sounds like the kids are well cared for, loved and happy. Although yes, it's not ideal and they would undoubtedly benefit from a cleaner home.

I'll be honest, my house gets like that on occasion when I have a lot of demands on my time....and I have a partner, I'm not a single parent, so she obviously has it harder than me.

If I was in your position, I would say something like "right, come on, that's last weeks coffee cups still here. I'm going to clear this weekend, and I'm going to come round with a roll of bin bags. Let's just get this sorted, and it'll make everything easier."

Be firm. I would imagine she would appreciate the help, just finds it hard to accept.

LoobyDop · 02/02/2024 10:15

Octavia64 · 02/02/2024 09:53

There are visual ratings for clutter/hoardings - maybe have a look at these?

hoardingdisordersuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/clutter-image-ratings.pdf

My house gets like that on occasion - but I do then spend a few days getting it back to clean and tidy. (I am physically disabled)

I have a relative in this position, and this is really helpful, thank you. Their home is mostly around level 3.

Just out of interest, does anyone else think the level 1 living room could do with a tidy, or should I book myself in for therapy?

AttillaThePlum · 02/02/2024 10:16

I think the person who has posted the hoarding scale has hit the nail on the head here.

This isn't just untidiness, it sounds like the early stages of hoarding and this is something which gets harder to deal with the longer you leave it. (And is also associated with ADHD in some studies, but who knows...)

In your shoes I would go down two routes. One is I would report it - but perhaps to the NSPCC first and see what they say about taking it further with either social services or the school.

The other is to try and help her but taking it very slowly and carefully as she may get quite defensive and resistant about it. But if you can even stop it getting worse you are doing a good thing.

maxelly · 02/02/2024 10:18

I'm not an expert but I did grow up myself in a very unclean/hoarder's house (many years ago when mental health was far far less understood) so perhaps I can offer some kind of useful perspective. To me it sounds worrying, but not worrying worrying, if you see what I mean? The children are fed, clean, clothed, taken to school and happy/loved which is a hell of a lot more than many children get in this country (very sadly) so I doubt it's the sort of situation social services would get involved in and the risk of reporting to any kind of authority is that it would distress and alienate your friend to no real benefit - it might give her the 'kick up the arse' to do a massive one-off clean or tidy a PP referred to but the trouble if it's ADHD or depression causing her not to be able to establish/maintain systems she won't be able to maintain it.

The biggest problems for me and my siblings growing up were not physical, we were perfectly healthy despite being fed a less than ideal diet (not totally untypical for the time mind you) and the kitchen and bathrooms were filthy but we didn't get sick more than the average. The problems really kicked in at teenage years when we realised this was of living was abnormal and started to feel a lot of shame about it - we certainly wouldn't ever invite friends around which caused some issues socially and from my early teen years I effectively became a full time housekeeper around school (did all the cooking, cleaning, laundry and persuading my dad to keep his hoard in check). That sounds awful but actually again it wasn't totally unusual for the time, a lot of my female housemates had to take on a lot of domestic chores as well as school - like I say the bigger problem was we were never taught 'normal' domestic habits and skills and felt a lot of guilt about the whole thing. My parents did have some good friends who would occasionally come in and blitz the place which was kind of them but disposing of a hoarder's horde causes huge emotional distress and they'll usually just replicate it as quick as they can, which caused some arguments and fallouts with the friends who had dedicated a lot of time to helping, so if your friend has hoarding tendencies bear that in mind.

I think personally the children sound like they're doing well for now but it would be good if 'Amy' can be helped to find some better ways of coping in the next couple of years. I would keep being a good friend to her, perhaps rather than pushing the cleaning side of things you could see if you can persuade/help her to address the underlying causes - there's a load of material out there about adult ADHD, podcasts etc - perhaps you can make it a shared interest?

Tlolljs · 02/02/2024 10:21

LoobyDop · 02/02/2024 10:15

I have a relative in this position, and this is really helpful, thank you. Their home is mostly around level 3.

Just out of interest, does anyone else think the level 1 living room could do with a tidy, or should I book myself in for therapy?

Yeah those cereal boxes in 1 need to be found a home for.

LonginesPrime · 02/02/2024 10:21

Just out of interest, does anyone else think the level 1 living room could do with a tidy, or should I book myself in for therapy?

The table in picture 1 isn't functional as it's covered with stuff and looks like it is being used for storage rather than as a table.

I wonder if picture 1 is supposed to represent the very early stages of clutter accumulation (i.e. where any flat surface ends up being used as storage space, but stuff hasn't yet spilled to piles on the floor, etc) rather than representing a clutter-free home.