When does mess become child neglect/squalor?

[AmysFriend]

So bear with me, please, this is very long but I want to include as much detail as possible.
I have a friend of many years, let's call her Amy, in her 30s who’s a single parent to three girls aged 3, 5 and 6. Amy and her ex husband split up amicably when she was pregnant with the youngest. The kids go to their dad’s house one night a week and every other weekend and slightly over half of the school holidays. Otherwise they are at home with Amy. Amy works school hours and Saturday mornings from home - she has a computer in the box room set up for this. The girls share the biggest bedroom and Amy is in the medium bedroom. Also in the house are one bathroom, a small kitchen and a living room. There's a table, supposedly for eating at, in the living room. Usually when she's working the girls are at school but on every second Saturday morning they're watching TV/playing on tablets and helping themselves to any snacks or drinks they need while Amy works.

Money isn't abundant but there's enough to pay bills, food, clothes etc and also have a few extras for toys, outings, favourite foods etc. Amy and the girls are mutually affectionate and loving. I'd say they have a lovely bond.

So that's the context. This is the issue. Amy's house is really bad. By arrangement I visit every Thursday morning for a half hour catch-up - Amy takes an early lunch break and we sit and chat. Over the months I noticed that things were getting more and more cluttered and grubby each week but lately it's struck me that I think it's crossed a line. To sit on the sofa, which is a cloth sofa thoroughly stained with juice and food spills, you have to move armfuls of laundry. Some of the laundry is clean, some is dirty but there's no attempt to keep them separate or really keep track of which is which. Amy says to put the laundry on the floor to make room to sit down but the floor is dirty carpet covered in crumbs and hairs and grit and general lack of vacuuming. Vacuuming would be a problem because the floor is cluttered with toys, skateboards, the box for a huge trampoline which the girls got for Christmas but which hasn't been put up yet, and a huge Barbie dollhouse. I'm not sure there’s room to put the trampoline up because the back yard is full of bikes, scooters, a broken bed and one of those Eglu hen pens for their pet chickens.

I decline offers of drinks/food because there are never any clean mugs or plates and Amy will go through to the kitchen to wash some but to do so she'll need to take dirty pans out of the sink and then she won't be able to put the pans on the work surface cos it's covered in food boxes and wet laundry that needs to go in the dryer but there's already clothes in the dryer that she'll need to empty the dryer but all the laundry baskets are already full on the kitchen floor so she throws those clean, dried clothes onto the sofa and then there's nowhere to sit etc etc. You get the idea. No simple domestic action can be performed without dealing with a whole other logjam of domestic actions.

The table to the side of the lounge that's meant for eating at has paperwork and school bags and colouring books and last years uneaten Easter eggs, still boxed!, all over it and the chairs have laundry on them so nobody can sit there. The kids lie on the floor to watch TV and usually sit wherever they can to eat. A lot of food is delivered takeaway - I think because it's so daunting to start to find clean plates and cutlery and pans etc. They also all eat a lot of fruit and raw vegetables. I've never known kids who like munching on a carrot as much as these three.

I don't know what upstairs is like but the stairs up are unvacuumed and have things (books, laundry, shoes) at the sides of every tread.

So to ward off the inevitable questions:

1. Yes, I have offered to help tidy, clean and sort. Several times. But Amy says she wants to chat when I visit, not do any housework. I've also said that I could come round for a couple of hours one of the weekends the girls are with their dad but she refuses. ‘I’ll get round to it soon.’ I have a lot of pressures on my own time and kids of my own so can't offer much in the way of practical assistance.

1. Yes, I have explicitly told her that things need to be cleaner and tidier. She laughs it off while agreeing with me.

1. No, she couldn't afford a cleaner. And also a cleaner wouldn't be able to start cleaning due to the clutter.

1. No, I don't think Amy is depressed. She's a very cheerful, hilarious, upbeat person who brings sunshine to my life.

1. Yes, I think she might have ADHD. No, I am not a doctor so this is not a formal diagnosis.

1. Yes, I'm worried about the kids. They're always clean and tidy looking in their personal appearance so I don't have worries about their personal appearance but I know they have, for instance, missed out on PE at school because a gym kit couldn't be found in time that morning. I suspect Amy fairly often will just buy the kids new clothes rather than trying to get a grasp of the laundry backlog, which obviously then adds to the clutter. This way of living isn't sustainable for them.

1. Yes I am doubtless a nosy bastard and bad friend for posting this here.

So how worrying is this situation? The kids are bubbly and ebullient and clean when I see them which admittedly isn't all that often, probably once a month or so when I'm picking the middle one up on a Sunday to take to Junior Parkrun with my son. Amy seems pretty content with her life. But there isn't any sign that she's going to want to arrest the ever increasing clutter and grubbiness. What should I do?

What's prompted me to ask now is that yesterday when I arrived with two takeaway coffees and some cookies for us to share (this is my way of pre-empting being offered a cuppa - see above) I noticed that the Costa cups and paper bag from last weeks catch-up snacks were still on the trampoline box which seems to have become a kind of informal seat/coffee table in the living room. Also on the box were several Barbies, a clean potty, a slightly muddy egg from one of the hens, the inevitable clutch of laundry and a pile of paperwork and I thought: this has, I think, crossed a line.

What would you do if anything? Thanks.

An anonymous tip of to social services might help her get the support she needs. The threshold for removal is very high. You needn't worry about that.

It doesn't sound great and I wouldn't want to live like that and I don't think kids should be living like that... it sounds cluttered and messy and probably needs a good clean but it doesn't sound like squalor.

If the kids are at their dad's one night a week and every other weekend, and in those timeframes she's only working Saturday mornings, then she should have at minimum one night a week and 1.5 days of the weekend a fortnight child free in which she could do some of the more basic/urgent tidying and cleaning tasks.

Surely if she can afford takeaways every night she can afford a cleaner once a fortnight? If I were you I wouldn’t be offering to do it, but I would be pointing out it’s not great for the children and she needs to get on top of it, as the children are at their dad’s every other weekend she has time to make a start.

I agree with @CaramelMac . It's funny, lots of people I know see having a cleaner as a classy extravagance, but actually it's not that expensive. At around £15ph, it's the cost of a couple of takeaways a week.

It's also a myth that cleaners can't clean if there's clutter (within reason). If you want your cleaner to tidy or remove rubbish, they will, whatever you want them to do in the hours you pay for.

The only thing I don't make my cleaner do is empty the bathroom or nappy bins (toxic waste). But apart from that she'd throw away obvious rubbish, like the old Costa coffee cups as described in the op. She also does laundry for us; I still do a load a day but she gets two or three more loads done. The money is easily saved in being able to make home cooked meals more easily, saving on takeaways, which is healthier for everyone too.

Of course it's different if the client is a hoarder "why did you throw away my huge pile of old used envelopes, I wanted to reuse them". But it doesn't sound like that applies to op's Amy.

Ps I looked at my deliveroo bill: a takeaway for two adults and a child easily comes to 45 quid round here, if we get a dessert etc with it. That's three hours of cleaner! No brainer

Nobody's thought of this it seems.

It's not just a one off clean that it needs. It's needs mantenga every week and every day.

You would probably find it was a mess again soon after you tidied. Do you want to clean and tidy every week for her.
I wouldn't go round, sounds disgusting. I wouldnt want to be in a house like that, anymore than id sit there with someone smoking.
As for reporting her it would be pretty obvious it was you. You'd lose her as a friend if you did that.
I'd but out and mind your own business if I were you?
You didn't mention any family either. Perhaps they should be the ones to help?

Yes. I think that hoarding scale is really useful for showing the extent of the problem. But there's nothing here to say the friend is a boarder.

She's living with extreme clutter, but that seems to come of a struggle to organise.

OP if you decide to help her in the course of one of your usual visits, I would recommend bringing a selection of bags. Black, recycling, food waste, a couple of other colours. Bag up the laundry - sorted or unsorted, depending what she can cope with. Getting that out of the way will make a huge difference.

People have suggested lots of possible approaches. I would go with gentle but insistent. But try to avoid the language around making an effort that someone suggested in an otherwise good post. Don't make it moral issue. Don't shame her. Just be frank and tell her you are much better at this kind of thing than she is and that you really want to help.

Mines a 1 thank god. You are right to step in. Poor kids shouldn't live like that.

I've done this for people and they've been able to maintain to a reasonable extent for years. Weekly cleaner willing to tidy would be a bonus too. I wouldn't assume this is forever.

Some will some won't . There's a despertar issue going on.

Deeper

I agree, but this sounds like a woman who is managing many aspects of her life well with her children so young, and she might be able to do better at this with a bit of a boost.

Worth a try, I think.

So I'm hearing: lovely, affectionate mum with strong, healthy bond with her children has a messy house. Children don't seen bothered. They enjoy healthy food and snack on fresh fruit and veg instead of junk. They raise hens! They have an abundance of toys and they're always clean and well looked after.

I have a friend like this. The shocking thing is she is a consultant (as in medical!) and her husband is a fucking MP.

I think she definitely has a hoarding-type disorder. If it was just a case of things getting a bit on top of her, I suspect she'd have said yes to your offer of going around to help her tidy up. The fact that there are things like a trampoline still in a box and Easter eggs from a year ago is very typical of a hoarder.

This doesn't, however, mean the children would be considered neglected. If they are being fed (regardless of what they're eating) and have clean clothes (regardless of whether they can find their PE kit), proper bedding and a functioning bathroom in which they are also able to shower/wash as frequently as they need to, I don't think the conditions would constitute neglect. But that doesn't mean that Amy doesn't have a problem - she clearly does. And if it continues to escalate like this, it will eventually become unsafe for the kids. As you say, one thing leads to another. At some point, every available surface will be covered in junk and instead of throwing stuff out, she will start putting stuff in the bath 'just for now' and it will become unusable, or the new clothes she keeps buying for the kids will end up piled on their beds and their bedding won't get changed, etc etc. She will definitely get mice or rats if she hasn't already (chickens tend to attract rats as it is, so any rats that pop in to pinch chicken feed will eventually notice there's a house full of dirty plates and old Easter eggs and Costa cookie bags full of crumbs just across the garden).

I have a friend who's house is similar, I don't think it's at the neglect stage, if the kids are otherwise well cared for, but it's certainly not ideal. Things that might help:

• engineer arriving early, eg. "I've got an appointment near your house at 10 and don't want to be going back and forwards, would it be OK if I bring a book and hang out at your house until your ready to take lunch?" Then just do a bit while she's working, nothing major, just "I was making a cuppa so washed and put away some stuff while I was on"

• make it reciprocal, she may find it easier to accept your offer of help if she is also "helping" you with something

• invite her and the kids round more often. If there around the same age as yours, you could phrase it as the kids can play while we hang out, but with the benefit of getting them out of that environment more often, giving them less opportunity to make mess in hers and making sure they get a decent meal.

Another thing...Crumbs routinely in the carpet, plus hens in the garden nearby, is a recipe for mice/rats. The problem with clutter is also that you might not notice the signs of infestation immediately.

I say this as someone who has had some serious mice problems before... it is soul destroying. We had to get the ILs round to help, MIL decluttered for us... there were loads of droppings behind a tower of cardboard boxes.

Amy, learn from my mistake!

Ahh @KreedKafer I hadn't read, you already mentioned the rats! I agree!

I know a couple of people like this and their houses haven't been investigated by SS, and one who was worse, who was, although they didn't do anything except say tidy up a bit, but that had animal faeces in the house, smell was terrible, broken windows, dangerous furniture stacked places and the hall carpet hadn't been hoovered in years and years. But- again, the kids came out, every day, to school, loved, reasonably well dressed, I don't know how but they did. Knew the family only slightly but mum a teacher!

All that to say, that it probably isn't fixable by a one off clean, because if it's a week's worth of dishes/crap around the place, even if you clean it, it'll be like that again in a week. I mean she must be doing some cleaning, otherwise the pile and the smell would be worse, but probably does it late, not enough and in a not ideal way. The children seem to be happy and clean and fed and I don't think there's enough here to warrant intervention.

I don't think SS will do much. When I was working in the community we were on the lookout for signs of neglect but they were far more extreme than your friend. It was things like faeces on the floor, unusable bathrooms and hoarding piles so high it could crush a child.

Does she drive and have a car?

It's very difficult to get back on top of things like this if you can't run rubbish to the tip. Would definitely offer to help.there if necessary

Amy's day to day sounds HARD. Like relentless. Especially working from home. Does she get out much?

Her kids sound happy but eventually the mess will get to them. It sounds yuk but not actually threatening. But in a while they will realise and socially it will have an impact.

Amy probably doesn't know where to start. And that's a big thing. Her energy levels are probably also low and she feels overwhelmed. She probably does feel a sense of shame.

It's frustrating because just dealing with the low hanging fruit ie

clean and dirty laundry
broken items and rubbish
picking up the trampoline box
would make a big impact straight away.

That sort of thing brings a bit of momentum to the situation.

I hope you can help her.

Would she agree with you both bagging up all the clothes and drop them at a laundrette?
Sounds like that would clear somewhere to sit down at least
The problem is SS used to allocate support workers who would help her to clean and clear, but there is no funding for these services now
Its difficult to be blunt, she could be defensive and refuse to let you in again
You are a good friend

No advice OP but just wanted to say how lovely you come across and I genuinely enjoyed reading your post (obviously not the content) Hope you get some helpful input here