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When does mess become child neglect/squalor?

158 replies

AmysFriend · 02/02/2024 09:48

So bear with me, please, this is very long but I want to include as much detail as possible.
I have a friend of many years, let's call her Amy, in her 30s who’s a single parent to three girls aged 3, 5 and 6. Amy and her ex husband split up amicably when she was pregnant with the youngest. The kids go to their dad’s house one night a week and every other weekend and slightly over half of the school holidays. Otherwise they are at home with Amy. Amy works school hours and Saturday mornings from home - she has a computer in the box room set up for this. The girls share the biggest bedroom and Amy is in the medium bedroom. Also in the house are one bathroom, a small kitchen and a living room. There's a table, supposedly for eating at, in the living room. Usually when she's working the girls are at school but on every second Saturday morning they're watching TV/playing on tablets and helping themselves to any snacks or drinks they need while Amy works.

Money isn't abundant but there's enough to pay bills, food, clothes etc and also have a few extras for toys, outings, favourite foods etc. Amy and the girls are mutually affectionate and loving. I'd say they have a lovely bond.

So that's the context. This is the issue. Amy's house is really bad. By arrangement I visit every Thursday morning for a half hour catch-up - Amy takes an early lunch break and we sit and chat. Over the months I noticed that things were getting more and more cluttered and grubby each week but lately it's struck me that I think it's crossed a line. To sit on the sofa, which is a cloth sofa thoroughly stained with juice and food spills, you have to move armfuls of laundry. Some of the laundry is clean, some is dirty but there's no attempt to keep them separate or really keep track of which is which. Amy says to put the laundry on the floor to make room to sit down but the floor is dirty carpet covered in crumbs and hairs and grit and general lack of vacuuming. Vacuuming would be a problem because the floor is cluttered with toys, skateboards, the box for a huge trampoline which the girls got for Christmas but which hasn't been put up yet, and a huge Barbie dollhouse. I'm not sure there’s room to put the trampoline up because the back yard is full of bikes, scooters, a broken bed and one of those Eglu hen pens for their pet chickens.

I decline offers of drinks/food because there are never any clean mugs or plates and Amy will go through to the kitchen to wash some but to do so she'll need to take dirty pans out of the sink and then she won't be able to put the pans on the work surface cos it's covered in food boxes and wet laundry that needs to go in the dryer but there's already clothes in the dryer that she'll need to empty the dryer but all the laundry baskets are already full on the kitchen floor so she throws those clean, dried clothes onto the sofa and then there's nowhere to sit etc etc. You get the idea. No simple domestic action can be performed without dealing with a whole other logjam of domestic actions.

The table to the side of the lounge that's meant for eating at has paperwork and school bags and colouring books and last years uneaten Easter eggs, still boxed!, all over it and the chairs have laundry on them so nobody can sit there. The kids lie on the floor to watch TV and usually sit wherever they can to eat. A lot of food is delivered takeaway - I think because it's so daunting to start to find clean plates and cutlery and pans etc. They also all eat a lot of fruit and raw vegetables. I've never known kids who like munching on a carrot as much as these three.

I don't know what upstairs is like but the stairs up are unvacuumed and have things (books, laundry, shoes) at the sides of every tread.

So to ward off the inevitable questions:

  1. Yes, I have offered to help tidy, clean and sort. Several times. But Amy says she wants to chat when I visit, not do any housework. I've also said that I could come round for a couple of hours one of the weekends the girls are with their dad but she refuses. ‘I’ll get round to it soon.’ I have a lot of pressures on my own time and kids of my own so can't offer much in the way of practical assistance.
  1. Yes, I have explicitly told her that things need to be cleaner and tidier. She laughs it off while agreeing with me.
  1. No, she couldn't afford a cleaner. And also a cleaner wouldn't be able to start cleaning due to the clutter.
  1. No, I don't think Amy is depressed. She's a very cheerful, hilarious, upbeat person who brings sunshine to my life.
  1. Yes, I think she might have ADHD. No, I am not a doctor so this is not a formal diagnosis.
  1. Yes, I'm worried about the kids. They're always clean and tidy looking in their personal appearance so I don't have worries about their personal appearance but I know they have, for instance, missed out on PE at school because a gym kit couldn't be found in time that morning. I suspect Amy fairly often will just buy the kids new clothes rather than trying to get a grasp of the laundry backlog, which obviously then adds to the clutter. This way of living isn't sustainable for them.
  1. Yes I am doubtless a nosy bastard and bad friend for posting this here.

So how worrying is this situation? The kids are bubbly and ebullient and clean when I see them which admittedly isn't all that often, probably once a month or so when I'm picking the middle one up on a Sunday to take to Junior Parkrun with my son. Amy seems pretty content with her life. But there isn't any sign that she's going to want to arrest the ever increasing clutter and grubbiness. What should I do?

What's prompted me to ask now is that yesterday when I arrived with two takeaway coffees and some cookies for us to share (this is my way of pre-empting being offered a cuppa - see above) I noticed that the Costa cups and paper bag from last weeks catch-up snacks were still on the trampoline box which seems to have become a kind of informal seat/coffee table in the living room. Also on the box were several Barbies, a clean potty, a slightly muddy egg from one of the hens, the inevitable clutch of laundry and a pile of paperwork and I thought: this has, I think, crossed a line.

What would you do if anything? Thanks.

OP posts:
rookiemere · 02/02/2024 14:29

This sounds like Dnephew and his DWs house.
They are both ND so I don't think they see the clutter or dirt as others would. Their 4 year old isn't allowed in the kitchen by herself as it is allegedly dangerous, but this is because there are dishes and filth everywhere. I went to the downstairs toilet once when there and it was atrociously dirty.

My poor DSIL got the silent treatment because she was babysitting when their first DD was a baby and decided to clean the kitchen. Both adults were very defensive and angry about it. She has offered to pay for a cleaner but they won't have it.

Their two DDs are well dressed and always clean, but could never have friends over and it must be difficult to play with any toys as they are all strewn everywhere.

It's impossible to know what to do - as I say any offer of help is rebuffed, but they both recognise it's not ideal.

EliflurtleAndTheInfiniteMadness · 02/02/2024 14:31

AmysFriend · 02/02/2024 10:12

I think that might be my approach, @AmandaHoldensLips - brisk and breezy and just 'right, come on, let's clear some of this up while we chat'.

As someone who other's might think is in that situation I think this is more likely to work. Partly because it wouldn't feel as much of an imposition on your time if its just casual and in the moment. I ended thing's with Stbxh 12 months ago and he's been horrible and its be really hard to stay on top of things. I'm not actually doing more than before, I was mostly doing it on my own anyway. There was a lof of work in getting him out of our home and mediation and all his nasty manipulative behaviour to deal with and everything the kids are feeling and so on, I am exhausted and things have gotten away from me. Things probably have been a 3 on that scale in the living and dining areas at times, usually not more than a couple of days. I hate it and I feel horrible when things are like that, but sometimes there's absolutely nothing left. Your friend might not be depressed but maybe she's overwhelmed or burnt out or both like I am.

MaggieFS · 02/02/2024 14:41

If you are going to mention assessments done "as a SW" then please be aware your post is likely to be read with more gravitas than those by randoms (like me!).

I am very concerned that despite mentioning bedding, you conclude this house hasn't met the threshold. THE OP HASN'T SEEN UPSTAIRS.

MaggieFS · 02/02/2024 14:43

Sorry,meant to quote @TheSoundOfMucus with my pp.

MaggieFS · 02/02/2024 14:50

FWIW, I think depending on what's causing this, the blunt approach could do more harm than good.

An inability to keep on top of household chores can be indicative of mental health issues, and hoarding can in itself be a mental health illness.

Would she talk to a GP or can you self refer for Talking Therapy in your area?

Even if you help clear it up, if the cause isn't tackled, it will happen again.

TheSoundOfMucus · 02/02/2024 14:51

MaggieFS · 02/02/2024 14:41

If you are going to mention assessments done "as a SW" then please be aware your post is likely to be read with more gravitas than those by randoms (like me!).

I am very concerned that despite mentioning bedding, you conclude this house hasn't met the threshold. THE OP HASN'T SEEN UPSTAIRS.

Yes fair enough and that is a good point - I did say that the sleeping quarters would need to be assessed.

FWIW, I would rather the threshold was lower ( as it was 20 years ago), but we also then had decent support services we could offer - we would pay for house cleans in some instances, we would fund nurseries, provide home care support like a ‘mother’s help’ , and then later Flying start and children’s centres- all gone now.

Really the only route now is punitive so we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place, knowing environments are rubbish, but essential just about safe, and knowing that we cannot offer any support, just punitive measures that effectively judge parents who probably have MH or poverty issues, no support networks and so on. we also have to consider the bigger picture, and the fact that she is warm and loving and the kids go to school and are well presented are huge protective factors.

I just wish we had the resources of yesteryear and long for a Labour government again.

caringcarer · 02/02/2024 14:52

Many years ago I went to visit my sister about 160 miles away from where I live. She didn't know I was coming and her house was a total mess. She had a 1 year old and I think she was depressed. She sat and cried. I invited myself for a week stay about 2 weeks later once I'd booked some holiday. I took down loads of cleaning stuff. I drove her 3 DC to Mums about 40 miles away because my Mum did not drive. Mum looked after her DC for 4 days. I took 2 packs of black sacks with me. I filled the first one within 10 mins. I filled 5 sacks with rubbish, broken toys, empty packets etc. I put her boiler on high to get loads of hot water. Put all dirty dishes on the kitchen floor to clear the sink out then started washing up and after each load I dried and put away. I washed four loads of dishes whilst loading up washing machine twice. My sister did hang some washing in the line. She said she just couldn't face the dishes. She was tired because her baby had not been sleeping as teething. I made my sister a pot of tea and gave her a big hug and went back to spend night at Mums. The next day I did 3 loads of laundry then changed all the bedding and then washed and dried it all. I cleaned her bathroom and shower so my sister could shower. I vacuumed every room, needing to change the vacuum bag as well. I opened all the windows, sprayed air freshener around, steam mopped the bathroom and kitchen floors. I went back to sleep at Mums. The following day I cleaned the bathroom again to get lime scale off and the kitchen, dusted and polished and took my sister to buy some storage boxes to help kids keep toys picked up. Then I took her food shopping as not much food in the house. She agreed to go to her GP and was diagnosed with PND and given medication. She found it hard but did manage to keep it up with the help of a cleaner my Mum paid for 2 hours a week for about 6 months until she felt more herself again. Through all of this her useless husband did nothing, he didn't try to do any chores around the house and didn't try to get my sister to her GP. It took her 3 more years before she divorced him. I was just so angry he must have known she was ill but never told me or Mum.

RoseMarigoldViolet · 02/02/2024 14:53

I wouldn’t report to anyone external. I would try again with the kind honest approach and offer your help as a friend. Maybe be a bit more brutally honest, but say it with kindness and affection for her.

Octavia64 - Thanks for posting the clutter stage ratings. Fascinating!

HowDoTheyGetThroughLife · 02/02/2024 15:00

LoobyDop · 02/02/2024 10:15

I have a relative in this position, and this is really helpful, thank you. Their home is mostly around level 3.

Just out of interest, does anyone else think the level 1 living room could do with a tidy, or should I book myself in for therapy?

My kitchen is tidier that picture 1
Bedroom about 2
Living room probably 1 or 2.

My sister-in-law's place is about 6 in every single room, and has been for 10 years (she's early 60s) and hasn't had anyone in her house (including GC etc) for 9 years. I only know because she told me but she refuse all offers of help

rivercobbler · 02/02/2024 15:06

Ask her if she wants to go on Sort Your Life Out - currently taking applicants

DemBonesDemBones · 02/02/2024 15:07

@Netflixmad your suggestion is one of the weirdest things I've ever read on mumsnet.

user1492757084 · 02/02/2024 15:09

Perhaps your coffee friend would welcome a chat, a coffee and you also arriving with some rubbish bags and some boxes for St Vinnies and stating that today you will help her tidy and clear the living room.
Another time you might offer to sort clothes.

Another time you might offer to clear and clean the kitchen.
She might really need some company to start the task.
Your friend might be much more capable of keeping the house tidier for her kids once some clearing has been completed.
SS could have helpful hints and cleaners; it could be a good call to speak to SS.

Felicia19 · 02/02/2024 15:14

I think it would be very low on SS's list of priorities. They have to deal with real neglect where children aren't getting enough food or are being abused.
It's not a good state of affairs, but as the children grow up a bit and want their friends to come round, they will probably start the tidying themselves.
You said that Amy couldn't afford a cleaner, but could she afford to send at least some of the dirty washing to a laundry?

DelphineFox · 02/02/2024 15:22

My kitchen doesn't match any of those as there's more clutter on the top of the cupboards than the first few photos but none on the floor.

LivingDeadGirlUK · 02/02/2024 15:22

IfYouDontAsk · 02/02/2024 10:08

I think your only option is to be really blunt.

”Amy, I’m increasingly concerned about the cleanliness of your home. I think it’s at the stage where it’s a health risk to your children. I repeat my offer to spend time helping you to clean and keep on top of things but if you don’t take me up on that offer and the state of the house hasn’t significantly improved in a month, my conscience won’t allow me to be a bystander to your children living in these conditions.

I will need to speak to the children’s school and report what I believe is a safeguarding issue. I am not saying this to hurt you and I’ve thought very carefully before laying things out like this to you, but my concern for the children overrides the risk of this conversation ending our friendship.”

I agree with this but think you can maybe approach it in a gentler way so she doesn't clam up and stop inviting you (I'm assuming you are friends rather than family). Maybe next time turn up with a bin bag and say you aren't sitting down until its full, it will hopefully make an impact and open up the discussion re help.

dearymcdearface · 02/02/2024 15:47

She must trust you though as she is not embarrassed over the mess or the fact that you don’t have anywhere to sit down. Next time just tell her Common Amy, this is honestly too much. You HAVE to do something asap.

Cvoight · 02/02/2024 15:57

A counter point. You may actually be really helping without knowing realising it. It may just be a long game from your POV if you are serious about helping her.

I have ADHD and I’m very messy. I just often don’t have the resources to keep on top of everything.

Growing up, my parents were the same. Recently, ill health meant their house got out of control. Offering to help wasn’t an option at first. Instead, I just spent a lot more time with them, building up their trust. Getting to the point where they were ok with me cleaning up. Now their house is sorted, and they have a cleaner in twice a week. But it was a long game from my POV - a game in which I had to keep their dignity in tact.

Your friendship and visits may be the one thing that is keeping your friend from falling further apart. She’s a single mum, working six days a week. On her night off, or alternate Sundays, she may just need to collapse. I know I do. That time without children is so precious. I sometimes just need to be completely still for hours on end. It’s my way of re-charging.

As for what action that means you could take to help. I would say still keep being a friend. The more you can build trust with her, the better. She may well let you in (eg let you help) but she needs to not feel judged. Then I guess is there a way you can support her to get more time off than she currently gets? I guess not, but if there was a way of helping her recharge, giving her the space to reset, she may use that to tidy.

Another way of thinking this, is trying to spot how she recharges. If she has any exercising dreams, is that something you could do with her? The post exercise high may be enough for her to kick start this.

It sounds like she is a loving mum, and that her kids are ok. Just hang in there, try to not to judge. If it gets worse, you may need to consider other approaches but that’s my POV from someone who struggles with mess. I can’t imagine being a single parent of three young dc and being as messy as I am, working from home 6 days a week. Sound really tough.

itsgettingweird · 02/02/2024 16:04

That clutter scale is really interesting.

However I noticed that there's a huge difference between 1 and 2.

I don't know anyone who lives at 1 unless you never do anything in the house but 2 is not normal living.

But anyway, I digress!

I think you need to try the blunt approach as suggested above. Just say you'd love to chat but can also help. Recognise the more you get behind the more overwhelming it can feel and you aren't judging - just offering to help her remove the overwhelmingness (is that a word?!)

UserExperience · 02/02/2024 16:06

This thread is thinking I should offer my friend help. Her house isn't great and she knows it but for various valid reasons she can't get on top of it.

So hard to broach something like this though. Must consider what to do!

I also have friends (I include their other halves in this) who have no excuses (IMO) but are just very very messy!

I'm probably the other way which can be equally as bad as I simply can't relax / leave the mess even for a short while which creates issues too!

UserExperience · 02/02/2024 16:06

My house is almost always at 1 by the end of the day.

rookiemere · 02/02/2024 16:13

itsgettingweird · 02/02/2024 16:04

That clutter scale is really interesting.

However I noticed that there's a huge difference between 1 and 2.

I don't know anyone who lives at 1 unless you never do anything in the house but 2 is not normal living.

But anyway, I digress!

I think you need to try the blunt approach as suggested above. Just say you'd love to chat but can also help. Recognise the more you get behind the more overwhelming it can feel and you aren't judging - just offering to help her remove the overwhelmingness (is that a word?!)

Yes I would say we are 1.5.
It's certainly not spotless and there are things out on the counter, but I'd never leave rubbish on the floor.

Jf20 · 02/02/2024 16:16

I find the pictures inconsistent, the living room at a 1 for me is cluttered and untidy, where as a 1 for the bedroom is practically bare

FedUpMumof10YO · 02/02/2024 16:16

Try 'come on Amy, get your shithole tidied up - you should be embarrassed'

That'll do the job.

All this nicey nicey is clearly failing.

Naptrappedmummy · 02/02/2024 16:19

I go between 1 and 2, 2 is a bad day and it never gets worse than that (apart from Christmas before presents have been put away etc). I have to admit I find keeping on top of clutter really hard with the children - masses of gifts for birthdays/Christmas, clothes grown out of in 2 months flat, drawings and bits of craft coming home from school every day, bloody stickers. But I just can’t mentally function as well in mess so whatever happens I find a way to get rid of it, I usually go crazy every couple of months and fill a few bin bags.

Hubblebubble · 02/02/2024 16:22

I'm a single mum (of just the one) with no shared custody. I also WFH and do an online MA. I can sympathise that its very hard to do everything, but my kitchen is always spotless. Health and safety. Bathroom ditto. Sons bedroom next level of clean and tidy. Living room is messy, my own bedroom is chaos. The one bad room method helps me! She's got to learn to prioritise