When does mess become child neglect/squalor?

[AmysFriend]

So bear with me, please, this is very long but I want to include as much detail as possible.
I have a friend of many years, let's call her Amy, in her 30s who’s a single parent to three girls aged 3, 5 and 6. Amy and her ex husband split up amicably when she was pregnant with the youngest. The kids go to their dad’s house one night a week and every other weekend and slightly over half of the school holidays. Otherwise they are at home with Amy. Amy works school hours and Saturday mornings from home - she has a computer in the box room set up for this. The girls share the biggest bedroom and Amy is in the medium bedroom. Also in the house are one bathroom, a small kitchen and a living room. There's a table, supposedly for eating at, in the living room. Usually when she's working the girls are at school but on every second Saturday morning they're watching TV/playing on tablets and helping themselves to any snacks or drinks they need while Amy works.

Money isn't abundant but there's enough to pay bills, food, clothes etc and also have a few extras for toys, outings, favourite foods etc. Amy and the girls are mutually affectionate and loving. I'd say they have a lovely bond.

So that's the context. This is the issue. Amy's house is really bad. By arrangement I visit every Thursday morning for a half hour catch-up - Amy takes an early lunch break and we sit and chat. Over the months I noticed that things were getting more and more cluttered and grubby each week but lately it's struck me that I think it's crossed a line. To sit on the sofa, which is a cloth sofa thoroughly stained with juice and food spills, you have to move armfuls of laundry. Some of the laundry is clean, some is dirty but there's no attempt to keep them separate or really keep track of which is which. Amy says to put the laundry on the floor to make room to sit down but the floor is dirty carpet covered in crumbs and hairs and grit and general lack of vacuuming. Vacuuming would be a problem because the floor is cluttered with toys, skateboards, the box for a huge trampoline which the girls got for Christmas but which hasn't been put up yet, and a huge Barbie dollhouse. I'm not sure there’s room to put the trampoline up because the back yard is full of bikes, scooters, a broken bed and one of those Eglu hen pens for their pet chickens.

I decline offers of drinks/food because there are never any clean mugs or plates and Amy will go through to the kitchen to wash some but to do so she'll need to take dirty pans out of the sink and then she won't be able to put the pans on the work surface cos it's covered in food boxes and wet laundry that needs to go in the dryer but there's already clothes in the dryer that she'll need to empty the dryer but all the laundry baskets are already full on the kitchen floor so she throws those clean, dried clothes onto the sofa and then there's nowhere to sit etc etc. You get the idea. No simple domestic action can be performed without dealing with a whole other logjam of domestic actions.

The table to the side of the lounge that's meant for eating at has paperwork and school bags and colouring books and last years uneaten Easter eggs, still boxed!, all over it and the chairs have laundry on them so nobody can sit there. The kids lie on the floor to watch TV and usually sit wherever they can to eat. A lot of food is delivered takeaway - I think because it's so daunting to start to find clean plates and cutlery and pans etc. They also all eat a lot of fruit and raw vegetables. I've never known kids who like munching on a carrot as much as these three.

I don't know what upstairs is like but the stairs up are unvacuumed and have things (books, laundry, shoes) at the sides of every tread.

So to ward off the inevitable questions:

1. Yes, I have offered to help tidy, clean and sort. Several times. But Amy says she wants to chat when I visit, not do any housework. I've also said that I could come round for a couple of hours one of the weekends the girls are with their dad but she refuses. ‘I’ll get round to it soon.’ I have a lot of pressures on my own time and kids of my own so can't offer much in the way of practical assistance.

1. Yes, I have explicitly told her that things need to be cleaner and tidier. She laughs it off while agreeing with me.

1. No, she couldn't afford a cleaner. And also a cleaner wouldn't be able to start cleaning due to the clutter.

1. No, I don't think Amy is depressed. She's a very cheerful, hilarious, upbeat person who brings sunshine to my life.

1. Yes, I think she might have ADHD. No, I am not a doctor so this is not a formal diagnosis.

1. Yes, I'm worried about the kids. They're always clean and tidy looking in their personal appearance so I don't have worries about their personal appearance but I know they have, for instance, missed out on PE at school because a gym kit couldn't be found in time that morning. I suspect Amy fairly often will just buy the kids new clothes rather than trying to get a grasp of the laundry backlog, which obviously then adds to the clutter. This way of living isn't sustainable for them.

1. Yes I am doubtless a nosy bastard and bad friend for posting this here.

So how worrying is this situation? The kids are bubbly and ebullient and clean when I see them which admittedly isn't all that often, probably once a month or so when I'm picking the middle one up on a Sunday to take to Junior Parkrun with my son. Amy seems pretty content with her life. But there isn't any sign that she's going to want to arrest the ever increasing clutter and grubbiness. What should I do?

What's prompted me to ask now is that yesterday when I arrived with two takeaway coffees and some cookies for us to share (this is my way of pre-empting being offered a cuppa - see above) I noticed that the Costa cups and paper bag from last weeks catch-up snacks were still on the trampoline box which seems to have become a kind of informal seat/coffee table in the living room. Also on the box were several Barbies, a clean potty, a slightly muddy egg from one of the hens, the inevitable clutch of laundry and a pile of paperwork and I thought: this has, I think, crossed a line.

What would you do if anything? Thanks.

I would be walking in bright and breezy and doing the washing up without asking or being asked. Talk while you tidy. If she questions it be honest and say you're worried and want to help.

Have you seen the bedrooms, is the bedding clean? Are sinks clean? Is the toilet clean? Do they have clean toothbrushes! Are there any fire hazards. Are the children physically safe for instance could they trip thing? Sounds like they could fall on the stairs. Sounds like a lot more than general household mess that would be cleaned every week. Would it be obvious it was you if you made an anonymous report? The thing is although she is a single parent surely she could spare a few hours when the children are at dads? Early help could help with a routine l get use to doing things in the evening such as putting laundry away, wiping services, having a house clean every week

I'd put a referral in via nspcc. State home conditions are the issue which should, really, trigger a home visit or at the very least a phone call.
She needs support.

As a close friend I would be insistent that I was helping. She’s probably too proud to accept you help so instead of offering, tell her.

“Amy, I love you and the kids very much and I know what a great job you’re doing as a single parent but I’m going to come round this weekend when the kids are at their dads and get this house in shape. This isn’t negotiable and I wouldn’t be offering if I didn’t want to”

12 days/nights on your own with 3 children and working is exhausting. I'd imagine she's flaking out on her weekends off. She's probably depressed despite appearances. I suggest watching the Norwich City FC suicide awareness campaign video.

I think if you take some of these suggestions, you could lose a friend, she’s made it clear you don’t wish help.

id maybe do something like say I’ve got ants and in my pants, need to be doing something, just done a big tidy , I will wash the dishes when you talk to me, humour me, I’ve too much energy,

and when finished coffee I’d remove the old ones too.

many people are too embarassed to accept help, so easier to laugh it off and pretend you don’t care.

i don’t think it’s hoarding as such, as the previous weeks coffee cups were sitting there, but clearly something more going on here.

I have read your thread and although the place isn't to yours and others standards the children sound and look very happy and from what you said have a good bond with mum.

I understand what you are saying but would not anonymously report your friend but show her the thread you wrote. Be honest.

Also there are alot of mums out there who are the opposite and their kids aren't allow to play, parents are screaming at them for mess made, they are more concerned with how the house looks to neighbours than playing with their kids.
We have a family like that in the area and they constantly are having work done on the house, and trying to make it different to others in road and at Xmas have loads of decs outside but quite often we have heard shouting swearing at kids but house looks perfect so things are not always as they seem.
I think it would be very unfair to report your friend without telling her your concerns as you put on a public forum

Life isn’t an episode of friends and the op isn’t Monica, you can’t force yourself into someone’s home to clean.

You can if you're good friends with someone

She sounds overwhelmed but no, this isn't neglect and you absolutely should not report her to social care wtf.

Keep trying different strategies to help.

I would probably mention to school as an anonymous note but being clear it is a loving safe home in other regards.
They may be able to have a PE kit to keep at school or to raise it which would motivate your friend.

If she has every other weekend to herself she could do a mega blitz! It can be damaging to grow up in this environment even if it's with a loving family.
Lack of clean clothes, toys in boxes, no clean space to relax or do homework.

I would decline to come over anymore and say that her house is becoming unsafe and you are really worried for the all. Perhaps this will jolt her to sort it?
I am obviously a bad person as I don't have the patience for this sort of behaviour. Reach out for help (depression, grief, nd etc) or get on and tidy it.

It's very awkward in this situation- clearly the kids aren't neglected as such and that's the biggie and it's going to be obvious if you do a nspcc referral it came from you- does she regularly have other visitors or family round OP- ? As if she does it's less clear cut who might have done a referral

This is like my friends house. She also certainly has Munchausen's by proxy. Dad sits around smoking weed too. Terrible half finished DIY everywhere. So much clutter. Yard looks like it belongs to steptoe and co. Kids always off school. I've offered to tidy and help clean. She takes me up on the offer, but it makes no difference. I know that she doesn't want to live like that, but neither does she have the motivation to change things. If you saw the house you would think that the kids were neglected, but they have clean clothes and are very much loved. It's borderline neglect. Unfortunately the kids don't help as they see it as normal so just drop their rubbish everywhere. I've not known what to do either.

@LoobyDop

Yes to my eyes the level 1 living room could do with a tidy.

However I grew up with a neat freak grandma who would take your cup away and wash it sometimes before you'd even finished your cup of tea, and it is actually normal to have some stuff lying around that you are using.

When I do a proper clean I clean and tidy to show house standards (doesn't happen often).

My sister was like this. Clean and dirty laundry always in piles on everything. Carpets never vacuumed and thick with black dog hair. My sister also smoked and once when her children came to stay,their hair and clothes stank of cigarette smoke.

I lived a fair way away and my sister was very prickly and it was a subject that couldn’t be raised. I regret that I didn’t, but still don’t think it would have made any difference to the situation.

The only thing I can think of is if you can spot something affecting the kids. Ie hair and clothes smell of cooking/dirty. They have coughs etc from dust in the air etc. that sort of thing.

This. SS are not going to step in for what you describe. Is it literally insanitary? Then maybe they would

This doesn't sound like squalor, it sounds like a mess though but not tipped into squalor. The laundry isn't really a problem. The pot situation is a bit grim and does need addressing.

My friend lives in squalor. His house is filthy. I mean like bathroom toilet covered in shit. Bathroom full of hair and grime. Dirty crusty plates spread across the house. Overflowing ash trays Fag buts put out ok his cooker top. Dog hair everywhere. Bedding with brown sweat marks. Flies in the kitchen. If a child is living in that mess I would immediately report.

Your friends house sounds like a tip, only you know how filthy it is under the untidyness it's the filth if it exists that is a problem not piles of laundry on the sofa.

Sadly tbh you should report this if it as bad as you say and your friend has Muchausens by Proxy and keeping her kids off school all the time.

I’m surprised at the folks saying it doesn’t sound dirty or asking if it’s dirty. The food stained sofa is hardly likely to be clean, she’s said the floor is covered in grime and crumbs, the sink is full of dirty dishes, last weeks rubbish still sitting in the living room, the stairs visibly in need of a hoover. Of course it’s dirty, no cleaning is going on there, as you need to move clutter to clean. So it’s dirty and cluttered.

I don’t think the kids are neglected as such though, but it can’t be pleasant living like this and having to eat takeaways a lot is not healthy. And there will come a time where they realise it is not normal and be embarassed by it.

@AmysFriend she is obviously feeling overwhelmed with trying to work, look after kids and house as well as laundry and cooking. remember she has no back up and the ex is only having the kids for one night so she probably feels like she wants to put her feet up.

I am concerned that even if you clean or offer assistance with cleaning, the situation is likely to quickly snowball again.

She struggles either with managing daily tasks or lacks interest in doing so. If she doesn't have any mental illness or addiction issues, and is simply overwhelmed and caught up in a one-time bad situation, then going over with some heavy duty bin bags and cleaning supplies while the kids are with their dad could truly make a huge difference. It would not only help her tidy up but also provide an opportunity for conversation while you clean. You can clean the house once, but you can't keep cleaning it indefinitely.

A few question I have: where are her parents? Do they care, have they seen the state? Why aren't they helping? What about siblings?

She works from a box room in a dirty house and sees you once a month but is that it? Maybe she's able to conceal any depression for the few hours she sees you.

Who was the cleaner before her separation? I'm assuming her home wasn't really dirty when she was with her partner so why have things changed so drastically?

I think what I would do is mention that her children will probably get bullied if they have friends over. I would probably create a story of a friend from school or a cousin who was bullied for having a really unclean home. I would mention they had social services called on them. Give her a poke up the bum. Clearly anything you've said before hasn't had any impact so I would up the ante.

Finally. One suggestion is to consider recommending or gifting these fabric storage bags to help her with organisation. They are convenient because they can be folded and stored easily when not in use.

They can be used to organise various things such as clothes, toys etc. There are even slimline ones that can go under the bed and other shapes and sizes:

https://m.shein.co.uk/1pc-Solid-Color-Clothes-Storage-Bag-Daily-Fabric-Large-Capacity-Quilt-Storage-Bag-For-Home-p-15870064-cat-3578.html?mallCode=1&imgRatio=3-4&ref=www&rep=dir&ret=m

https://m.shein.co.uk/1pc-Household-Clothes-Blanket-Storage-Bag-Wardrobe-Organizer-Foldable-Bed-Bottom-Dustproof-Storage-Pouch-p-22320225.html?mallCode=1&imgRatio=3-4

https://www.amazon.co.uk/OSDUE-Suitcase-Organizer-Waterproof-Suitcases/dp/B0BGXD8G2G/ref=mp_s_a_1_17?crid=1R99T4ZQ3W7U8&keywords=travel+cubes+large&qid=1706871873&sprefix=travel+cubes+large%2Caps%2C114&sr=8-17

Is it a fire hazard or risk or rats or other vermin? If so state that clearly but non judgmentally.
She can still be depressed but seem positive and radiate warmth when you see her

I have a friend like this and it infuriates me.
They have pots and pots of money but their house is like a festering hole of dirty clothes, dirty plates, clutter, and ingrained dirt. The smell hits you the moment the door is opened.
I've suggested many times getting a decluttering company in to help; a mutual friend has offered to help. Several of us even went in to clean and tidy when she was in hospital having a baby. But within days you could hardly tell we'd been
The kids are always clean, well cared for, fed, happy but I also don't know what to do as the house is vile.
My friend makes noises about getting a cleaner but no cleaner could go in there until it's tidy.
Following the thread with interest.

No it isn't a sign of clutter beginning.

Yes the table is being used for storage in the way a stereotypical doctor/dentist reception table has magazines on it.

I have assessed a lot of neglected houses as a SW. My benchmark is insect infestations, faeces and urine, how food is being sourced and Childrens beds - safe mattresses, not urine smells, appropriately and warm bedding etc. The ones that really worry me are where the adults have decent beds and bedding and children are sleeping on sagging, urine soaked mattresses with no bedding.

For me, your friend’s house would not meet threshold for intervention. Also, at least in our area, we have gradually lost the ability to offer support . There is no funding for clearance and cleanin, no Home Start, charities such as Action for Children have lost funding and so on. So all we do is tell families what they need to do and use child protection processes . It’s really difficult.