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When does mess become child neglect/squalor?

158 replies

AmysFriend · 02/02/2024 09:48

So bear with me, please, this is very long but I want to include as much detail as possible.
I have a friend of many years, let's call her Amy, in her 30s who’s a single parent to three girls aged 3, 5 and 6. Amy and her ex husband split up amicably when she was pregnant with the youngest. The kids go to their dad’s house one night a week and every other weekend and slightly over half of the school holidays. Otherwise they are at home with Amy. Amy works school hours and Saturday mornings from home - she has a computer in the box room set up for this. The girls share the biggest bedroom and Amy is in the medium bedroom. Also in the house are one bathroom, a small kitchen and a living room. There's a table, supposedly for eating at, in the living room. Usually when she's working the girls are at school but on every second Saturday morning they're watching TV/playing on tablets and helping themselves to any snacks or drinks they need while Amy works.

Money isn't abundant but there's enough to pay bills, food, clothes etc and also have a few extras for toys, outings, favourite foods etc. Amy and the girls are mutually affectionate and loving. I'd say they have a lovely bond.

So that's the context. This is the issue. Amy's house is really bad. By arrangement I visit every Thursday morning for a half hour catch-up - Amy takes an early lunch break and we sit and chat. Over the months I noticed that things were getting more and more cluttered and grubby each week but lately it's struck me that I think it's crossed a line. To sit on the sofa, which is a cloth sofa thoroughly stained with juice and food spills, you have to move armfuls of laundry. Some of the laundry is clean, some is dirty but there's no attempt to keep them separate or really keep track of which is which. Amy says to put the laundry on the floor to make room to sit down but the floor is dirty carpet covered in crumbs and hairs and grit and general lack of vacuuming. Vacuuming would be a problem because the floor is cluttered with toys, skateboards, the box for a huge trampoline which the girls got for Christmas but which hasn't been put up yet, and a huge Barbie dollhouse. I'm not sure there’s room to put the trampoline up because the back yard is full of bikes, scooters, a broken bed and one of those Eglu hen pens for their pet chickens.

I decline offers of drinks/food because there are never any clean mugs or plates and Amy will go through to the kitchen to wash some but to do so she'll need to take dirty pans out of the sink and then she won't be able to put the pans on the work surface cos it's covered in food boxes and wet laundry that needs to go in the dryer but there's already clothes in the dryer that she'll need to empty the dryer but all the laundry baskets are already full on the kitchen floor so she throws those clean, dried clothes onto the sofa and then there's nowhere to sit etc etc. You get the idea. No simple domestic action can be performed without dealing with a whole other logjam of domestic actions.

The table to the side of the lounge that's meant for eating at has paperwork and school bags and colouring books and last years uneaten Easter eggs, still boxed!, all over it and the chairs have laundry on them so nobody can sit there. The kids lie on the floor to watch TV and usually sit wherever they can to eat. A lot of food is delivered takeaway - I think because it's so daunting to start to find clean plates and cutlery and pans etc. They also all eat a lot of fruit and raw vegetables. I've never known kids who like munching on a carrot as much as these three.

I don't know what upstairs is like but the stairs up are unvacuumed and have things (books, laundry, shoes) at the sides of every tread.

So to ward off the inevitable questions:

  1. Yes, I have offered to help tidy, clean and sort. Several times. But Amy says she wants to chat when I visit, not do any housework. I've also said that I could come round for a couple of hours one of the weekends the girls are with their dad but she refuses. ‘I’ll get round to it soon.’ I have a lot of pressures on my own time and kids of my own so can't offer much in the way of practical assistance.
  1. Yes, I have explicitly told her that things need to be cleaner and tidier. She laughs it off while agreeing with me.
  1. No, she couldn't afford a cleaner. And also a cleaner wouldn't be able to start cleaning due to the clutter.
  1. No, I don't think Amy is depressed. She's a very cheerful, hilarious, upbeat person who brings sunshine to my life.
  1. Yes, I think she might have ADHD. No, I am not a doctor so this is not a formal diagnosis.
  1. Yes, I'm worried about the kids. They're always clean and tidy looking in their personal appearance so I don't have worries about their personal appearance but I know they have, for instance, missed out on PE at school because a gym kit couldn't be found in time that morning. I suspect Amy fairly often will just buy the kids new clothes rather than trying to get a grasp of the laundry backlog, which obviously then adds to the clutter. This way of living isn't sustainable for them.
  1. Yes I am doubtless a nosy bastard and bad friend for posting this here.

So how worrying is this situation? The kids are bubbly and ebullient and clean when I see them which admittedly isn't all that often, probably once a month or so when I'm picking the middle one up on a Sunday to take to Junior Parkrun with my son. Amy seems pretty content with her life. But there isn't any sign that she's going to want to arrest the ever increasing clutter and grubbiness. What should I do?

What's prompted me to ask now is that yesterday when I arrived with two takeaway coffees and some cookies for us to share (this is my way of pre-empting being offered a cuppa - see above) I noticed that the Costa cups and paper bag from last weeks catch-up snacks were still on the trampoline box which seems to have become a kind of informal seat/coffee table in the living room. Also on the box were several Barbies, a clean potty, a slightly muddy egg from one of the hens, the inevitable clutch of laundry and a pile of paperwork and I thought: this has, I think, crossed a line.

What would you do if anything? Thanks.

OP posts:
HunterBidensBurnerPhone · 02/02/2024 18:34

The kids seem happy at the moment because they're little. It's their normal - they don't know any different.

Take it from someone who grew up in a house like this, the real psychological damage starts to take hold in the teenage years. When you become so ashamed and secretive, you can't invite friends back to yours but you feel really guilty that you always end up at their house. Having to make excuses about why they can't come round, being acutely aware that it's not a normal way to live, taking on some of the burden of housework cleaning to try and mitigate the mess. I remember I did all the washing and ironing for me and my younger sibling from the age of about 12. I ended up living in my bedroom, which was the only clean space in the house, we had no family together time, no meals together, nowhere in the house that was in a fit enough state for us to collectively hang out. It was lonely and isolating and so depressing to not be able to do anything about it or escape.

It's a horrible, horrible way to live. I'm in my 40s and I moved out when I was 18 (and never went back) and I STILL have to work hard not to let that shame affect my life now.

100percentage · 02/02/2024 18:48

If she does have a hoarding disorder, she won't be able to cope if you start tidying or if you suggest others help with a 'clean up day'. I think she would need therapy beforehand to help her tackle it but then she'd have to first admit there's a problem.

I had a friend who was a hoarder but in her case she'd buy a house and then slowly start dismantling it. I went to visit her one time and she'd ripped out the kitchen with a sledgehammer (had no money to buy a new one) and her living room was piled to the ceiling with glass Guu jars, newspapers and things she'd found in skips. No kids involved but her marriage broke down because of it. She refused all offers of help and just said that she was 'doing the house up'. The friendship fizzled away because she just wanted to be left alone with her 'stuff'.

It's a really deeply entrenched illness so if your friend has that, she's going to need more support than a clean up.

Personally I'd not report to SS yet as the kids are clean, well-fed and happy but I would try another firmer talk, say you're worried about her and the DC and don't let her dodge away from it. SS is the nuclear option if all else fails!

MeinKraft · 02/02/2024 18:57

Sounds like the laundry is the main problem, a trip to one of those outdoor laundrettes and an hour or two spent folding would make a world of difference. I don't know how you get her to go with you though without threatening SS.

Also Hmm at the poster who thinks it's not neglect because 'they have hens!' Yes having hens is a lovely middle class activity but it doesn't necessarily made you Penelope Keith.

Fluffywhitecloudsinthesky · 02/02/2024 19:09

@HunterBidensBurnerPhone I agree, I think teenage self-consciousness about it all make it very stressful for the children after a certain age. The problem is is this enough to make SS intervene and how, in an effective way that would last for 10 years or so? I have been in at least four families' houses over the years (more for clients) where if I was that person, I would have been mortified. I also know of two teens right now who live in fairly horrible dirty houses and do a lot of the cleaning/shopping and so on. Their parents are rubbish. The threshold for intervention though is much much higher than this level of embarrassing dirt and rubbishness. As one of the SW on this thread said, there's no middle way, no Home Help type of schemes, it's punishment or nothing, whereas perhaps with support and or a bit of a threat of being monitored, some of this could be helped.

But the issues of neglect in all cases are bigger and worse than the rubbish issue, and the ones with dirty but loving homes seem to do pretty well overall (in comparison to the others anyway).

TheSilentSister · 02/02/2024 19:15

Several years ago I did a massive clean up for a friend, dozens of bin bags of rubbish, loads of cleaning and sorting but it didn't take long for it to get bad again. Thing is, they just weren't interested in cleaning! You can't help some people - it's like a mental block.

Hopperinhawkins · 02/02/2024 19:23

I'm not sure where in the country you live (sorry, not had time to rtft) or if you have any access to the children's school but early help/family support/Home start might be a good option? This won't meet children's services threshold but a lower 'tier' of support to help mum get on top of things might be good.

Mygreedylab · 02/02/2024 19:28

Haven’t rtwt but echo a pp - I grew up in a house similar to this. Please help her and more importantly those children. It has affected me my whole life.

LadyLapsang · 02/02/2024 19:31

You sound like a good friend and it sounds like that is just what she needs. I would start gently and can really recommend a book by Debora Robertson called Declutter, the get-real guide to creating calm from chaos. It is also available as an audiobook. The tone is just right to encourage someone to get started, or just do a bit every day.

Keychangeoff · 02/02/2024 19:34

If Amy came from money and lived in a grand old house filled with clutter and children's toys with clearly loved children lying on the floor relaxing would you be as concerned ? I think not...

HunterBidensBurnerPhone · 02/02/2024 19:43

Fluffywhitecloudsinthesky · 02/02/2024 19:09

@HunterBidensBurnerPhone I agree, I think teenage self-consciousness about it all make it very stressful for the children after a certain age. The problem is is this enough to make SS intervene and how, in an effective way that would last for 10 years or so? I have been in at least four families' houses over the years (more for clients) where if I was that person, I would have been mortified. I also know of two teens right now who live in fairly horrible dirty houses and do a lot of the cleaning/shopping and so on. Their parents are rubbish. The threshold for intervention though is much much higher than this level of embarrassing dirt and rubbishness. As one of the SW on this thread said, there's no middle way, no Home Help type of schemes, it's punishment or nothing, whereas perhaps with support and or a bit of a threat of being monitored, some of this could be helped.

But the issues of neglect in all cases are bigger and worse than the rubbish issue, and the ones with dirty but loving homes seem to do pretty well overall (in comparison to the others anyway).

Yeah a middle way is what's needed. But of course there is no money or motivation to create the kind of service that would provide that sort of support.

A dirty and cluttered house is not necessarily 'remove the kids' level of seriousness. But it can have a massive impact on their mental health and wellbeing. And it would be great if there was some kind of agency that could help parents who are struggling so they can create a clean, comfortable and safe environment for their children.

I do believe that it's incumbent on all parents to do at the very least give children an environment that's clean and comfortable. I hate to see those threads on here where people are congratulating themselves on how scummy their standards are - too busy 'making memories' or proud that their house is 'easy going' because no one ever has to worry about removing their shoes or leaving tea stain rings on the furniture. I know what it's like to have to skip the same stair on the way up to bed every night because 18 months ago the cat sicked up a hairball on it and it dried into the carpet.

I'm aware I'm a bit triggered by this thread and am probably projecting. But I do wish that someone had held my parents to account and made them to sort out their house because it was fucking disgusting. L

Hubblebubble · 02/02/2024 19:45

When it gets to hoarding levels of clutter, it's worth remembering that hoarding is in and of itself a mental health disorder

Fluffywhitecloudsinthesky · 02/02/2024 19:52

@HunterBidensBurnerPhone I agree and I would also feel terrible about that, no wonder this is a horrible thread to read.

HunterBidensBurnerPhone · 02/02/2024 20:02

Fluffywhitecloudsinthesky · 02/02/2024 19:52

@HunterBidensBurnerPhone I agree and I would also feel terrible about that, no wonder this is a horrible thread to read.

Thank you.

I'm just frustrated by some comments on this thread along the lines of 'the kids are fine, they're happy and loved and fed'. I know that if nothing changes, very soon they won't be fine or happy. It's an untenable way to live. But OP understandably doesn't want to be the bad guy and risk her friendship.

MrsNandortheRelentless · 02/02/2024 20:10

Apparently it needs to be flowing with sewage before anything is done.

Similar situation with a friend and her children.
You wouldn’t believe me if I described the horror of that house. It was absolutely dire.

SS involved, visited, sent an early years helper over, I helped but the following week it was worse than it was before.

Absolutely useless husband who was in a world of selfishness and self so did absolutely fuck all even when threatened with the kids being removed.
They never were and I think it has never got better.

Too hard to watch. Just too hard so I distanced myself.

Supersimkin2 · 02/02/2024 20:16

What’s the smell like?

AhBiscuits · 02/02/2024 20:59

I grew up in a too small, filthy house and it was awful. I had a bunk bed in a box room with my sister. My brothers had the same. Loads of pets. Dirt and grime everywhere.
I didn't have friends round.

Something that makes me so happy now is that my children have lovely bedrooms of their own. They have desks and bookshelves, space and privacy. They have no idea how lucky they are. I had to try and find a spot on the kitchen table to do homework, cats and dogs clambering over me, parrots landing on me.

Comedycook · 02/02/2024 21:28

I really can't see ss being very interested. It sounds a bit messy and maybe not particularly clean but it doesn't sound like a health hazard. And if there are no other issues in the family I just don't think they will do much.

Newbalancebeam · 02/02/2024 21:34

Get her watching Stacey Solomon. Might inspire her. I think it is neglect. She’s not teaching the DC normal habits about cleanliness. They must smell if the house is in that state. It’s just no way to live. I don’t live in a show home but I wouldn’t be mortified if someone came in last minute any day of the week. At most, there’d be a basket of ironing waiting and a few pots waiting to go in the dishwasher.

Tatumm · 02/02/2024 21:50

SS are very overstretched and won’t be interested. There is probably not much that you can do.

BreakfastAtMilliways · 02/02/2024 22:42

Jf20 · 02/02/2024 16:16

I find the pictures inconsistent, the living room at a 1 for me is cluttered and untidy, where as a 1 for the bedroom is practically bare

I also notice that the ‘bad’ kitchen photos on that scale don’t look convincingly filthy. The kitchen sink and drainer are still clean and shiny but, in true About A Boy style, someones’s emptied a couple of recycling wheelie bins’ worth of stuff on the floor. Whereas in real life, any room as bad as that will also have a sink full of dirty dishes, a mucky hob with burned on dirt and overflowing bins.

IloveAslan · 02/02/2024 23:00

ViscousFluidFlow · 02/02/2024 10:11

I love a tidy house and as much as I wouldn’t want to sit in that personally that is not SS intervention time. I do not think you realise what actual squalor is. Imagine going in to a house where you have to wash your boots after leaving.

I agree. A messy house and washing hanging around is not squalor. Unless she requests help, or you offer and she accepts, just leave her alone. It sounds like a happy household, which is the most important thing.

IncessantNameChanger · 02/02/2024 23:29

The photo scales aren't realistic. I have been hoarder level. There's never anything strewn across my floor. I can't relate to any of the photos

MadridMadridMadrid · 03/02/2024 00:06

Presumably there is no way Amy could be persuaded to get rid of the hens? That would be a good step in the right direction, as the hens both create a regular additional household chore that Amy could do without and also increase the risk of rats.

coxesorangepippin · 03/02/2024 02:04

Difficult one

Could you ask her if she has anything to donate?? Kids old clothes, unused toys? Surreptitiously clean up?

sunglassesonthetable · 03/02/2024 07:34

The photos are a bit of a general guide only. They are meant as a tool.

They are not meant to be 'realism.' They are there to give a bit of a handle on how bad a problem could be.

They are not meant to portray realism, with dirt and grime included. They are there to give a scale.

And I think they work well as that. Very interesting.

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