When does mess become child neglect/squalor?

[AmysFriend]

So bear with me, please, this is very long but I want to include as much detail as possible.
I have a friend of many years, let's call her Amy, in her 30s who’s a single parent to three girls aged 3, 5 and 6. Amy and her ex husband split up amicably when she was pregnant with the youngest. The kids go to their dad’s house one night a week and every other weekend and slightly over half of the school holidays. Otherwise they are at home with Amy. Amy works school hours and Saturday mornings from home - she has a computer in the box room set up for this. The girls share the biggest bedroom and Amy is in the medium bedroom. Also in the house are one bathroom, a small kitchen and a living room. There's a table, supposedly for eating at, in the living room. Usually when she's working the girls are at school but on every second Saturday morning they're watching TV/playing on tablets and helping themselves to any snacks or drinks they need while Amy works.

Money isn't abundant but there's enough to pay bills, food, clothes etc and also have a few extras for toys, outings, favourite foods etc. Amy and the girls are mutually affectionate and loving. I'd say they have a lovely bond.

So that's the context. This is the issue. Amy's house is really bad. By arrangement I visit every Thursday morning for a half hour catch-up - Amy takes an early lunch break and we sit and chat. Over the months I noticed that things were getting more and more cluttered and grubby each week but lately it's struck me that I think it's crossed a line. To sit on the sofa, which is a cloth sofa thoroughly stained with juice and food spills, you have to move armfuls of laundry. Some of the laundry is clean, some is dirty but there's no attempt to keep them separate or really keep track of which is which. Amy says to put the laundry on the floor to make room to sit down but the floor is dirty carpet covered in crumbs and hairs and grit and general lack of vacuuming. Vacuuming would be a problem because the floor is cluttered with toys, skateboards, the box for a huge trampoline which the girls got for Christmas but which hasn't been put up yet, and a huge Barbie dollhouse. I'm not sure there’s room to put the trampoline up because the back yard is full of bikes, scooters, a broken bed and one of those Eglu hen pens for their pet chickens.

I decline offers of drinks/food because there are never any clean mugs or plates and Amy will go through to the kitchen to wash some but to do so she'll need to take dirty pans out of the sink and then she won't be able to put the pans on the work surface cos it's covered in food boxes and wet laundry that needs to go in the dryer but there's already clothes in the dryer that she'll need to empty the dryer but all the laundry baskets are already full on the kitchen floor so she throws those clean, dried clothes onto the sofa and then there's nowhere to sit etc etc. You get the idea. No simple domestic action can be performed without dealing with a whole other logjam of domestic actions.

The table to the side of the lounge that's meant for eating at has paperwork and school bags and colouring books and last years uneaten Easter eggs, still boxed!, all over it and the chairs have laundry on them so nobody can sit there. The kids lie on the floor to watch TV and usually sit wherever they can to eat. A lot of food is delivered takeaway - I think because it's so daunting to start to find clean plates and cutlery and pans etc. They also all eat a lot of fruit and raw vegetables. I've never known kids who like munching on a carrot as much as these three.

I don't know what upstairs is like but the stairs up are unvacuumed and have things (books, laundry, shoes) at the sides of every tread.

So to ward off the inevitable questions:

1. Yes, I have offered to help tidy, clean and sort. Several times. But Amy says she wants to chat when I visit, not do any housework. I've also said that I could come round for a couple of hours one of the weekends the girls are with their dad but she refuses. ‘I’ll get round to it soon.’ I have a lot of pressures on my own time and kids of my own so can't offer much in the way of practical assistance.

1. Yes, I have explicitly told her that things need to be cleaner and tidier. She laughs it off while agreeing with me.

1. No, she couldn't afford a cleaner. And also a cleaner wouldn't be able to start cleaning due to the clutter.

1. No, I don't think Amy is depressed. She's a very cheerful, hilarious, upbeat person who brings sunshine to my life.

1. Yes, I think she might have ADHD. No, I am not a doctor so this is not a formal diagnosis.

1. Yes, I'm worried about the kids. They're always clean and tidy looking in their personal appearance so I don't have worries about their personal appearance but I know they have, for instance, missed out on PE at school because a gym kit couldn't be found in time that morning. I suspect Amy fairly often will just buy the kids new clothes rather than trying to get a grasp of the laundry backlog, which obviously then adds to the clutter. This way of living isn't sustainable for them.

1. Yes I am doubtless a nosy bastard and bad friend for posting this here.

So how worrying is this situation? The kids are bubbly and ebullient and clean when I see them which admittedly isn't all that often, probably once a month or so when I'm picking the middle one up on a Sunday to take to Junior Parkrun with my son. Amy seems pretty content with her life. But there isn't any sign that she's going to want to arrest the ever increasing clutter and grubbiness. What should I do?

What's prompted me to ask now is that yesterday when I arrived with two takeaway coffees and some cookies for us to share (this is my way of pre-empting being offered a cuppa - see above) I noticed that the Costa cups and paper bag from last weeks catch-up snacks were still on the trampoline box which seems to have become a kind of informal seat/coffee table in the living room. Also on the box were several Barbies, a clean potty, a slightly muddy egg from one of the hens, the inevitable clutch of laundry and a pile of paperwork and I thought: this has, I think, crossed a line.

What would you do if anything? Thanks.

First off you're not a bad friend if you were you wouldn't be concerned.

Can you speak to the children's dad? Or any of Amy's family members?
If you reported anonymously to ss or the nspcc or the school even would it be obvious it was you that had done it?

That’s so utterly depressing that the bench mark is that low.

It's not ideal but I would say honestly (as a professional) that I would be unsure if this would be considered safeguarding concern which has a completely different meaning to what people usually consider to be acceptable. Different story if kids were not clean, dirty bedding, not fed, mouldy cups / plates or food that are being used or left about / faeces or vermin etc which not cleared up, physical or emotional abuse etc.

You need to ring your local Police who will go and do a visit. They will refer to social services if they think it’s bad. It sounds bad, especially if you’re saying it’s hoarding levels three and four. Please don’t just leave it. Those children are living in an unacceptable situation. If you wouldn’t be happy for your own children to live there, then no one else’s children should have to. You have a social responsibility to do something and not ignore it. I wouldn’t even speak to your friend and warn her, I would just report it.

What? You don’t phone the police as someone’s house is dirty or messy!

I think you've got it right with no 7. With friends like you, who needs enemies?

Single mum to three young kids, working full-time... it's a lot. She may well be struggling.

Her house sounds untidy and cluttered rather than filthy.

You must be a perfect mother indeed if you've never struggled to find a gym kit or get it washed and dried on time... with three kids. We have four and our house resembles a working laundry, honestly.

How about sitting down and trying to have a supportive conversation with her about how she is and how she's coping, rather than all this judgement?

I hope your friend reads this post, at least. Would be nice for her to know your thoughts on that, coming every Thursday and thinking what you think

@Jf20 yes you do if it’s so bad it’s impacting on the children ie a hoarding and lack of cleaning scenario. I was a child protection detective for many years until recently. This absolutely can be reported to the Police. From what the poster says it’s not just untidy.

Going on and cleaning isn’t ops responsibility, I doubt it would be taken well and also doesn’t solve the problem at all. It needs the friend to realise that this isn’t an ok way for children to live. Washing up once a week won’t touch the sides nor make her realise this.
Also the threatening to report her will just mean the friendship will be lost.
I would have a very honest conversation, tell her you think she needs help and you are worried about them all. Then take it from there depending on what she says.

I don't know where you live but round here, the police really don't have time to visit because somebody thinks a house is untidy. Madness.

@Sapphire387 the poster is saying it’s dirty. She’s concerned enough to post a long post expressing her concern. I visited many homes in this scenario and took action. No child should have to live in filth.

I'm so glad you had supportive friends and family who helped you get on track. It can be hard to keep on top of things, and harder still to get back on course when things have wandered south. This is really good, solid advice.

Yes I did, but DH is OCD with the place being tidy and would think our living room a complete mess at the moment. But there is only stuff on the coffee table and my daughters sowing on the chair.

I have ADHD and there can be a lot of shame attached to this, even to the point of not allowing yourself help because you feel should be able to do better. How I would approach it is to maybe to do it on one of these chats and say I don't want you be be embarrassed or ashamed but I am concerned that your house isn't the right environment for the girls because it is leaning from messy into dirty. Tell her you know she's been through a lot and you aren't judging her but your talking from a place of concern. Say that you can help or even just be with her whilst she tidied but she needs to make an effort for the girls.
There are so many YouTube videos specifically for people with ADHD that she might find helpful.
It is very difficult and exhausting so I would try and separate mess from cleanliness and hazards to the kids and remind her it comes from caring.

You might find she withdraws or is reluctant to have you back round for visits because she worries about future judgement so just be mindful of that.

You sound like you care very much though and I hope she takes it in the way it is meant.

You can't do this to another adult?

Op has clearly said she's tried talking to her friend and it doesn't work.

If you're saying that your dirty and clean laundry is mixed and lying on every surface then instead of having a go at op, maybe try some self reflection. If not, then your house is no where near ops friends house and that's why she's worried.
No child should be eating take out on a dirty floor consistently because there's no clean plates, no space to sit, and there's week old food stuff left out.

Op I think the issue is with it not being clean. Clutter is one thing, but no clean dishes and rubbish lying around for weeks is another completely, how is her bathroom or have you not dared look?

Growing up we had neighbours like this and the kids could never ha e friends over. You didn't dare remove your shoes going into the house as it was crunchy underfoot.

I got very upset the first time I did my safeguarding at work when I realised this was actually neglecte. Nobody had ever done anything for those poor girls. Please report, either to the school or social services. Who should do a vist to assess the situation.

Maybe if you can speak to your friend and point out that clutter isn't the same as dirt and it needs cleaning. For the health of her children.

I’d disagree with some of the posts saying that it’s not a social services matter. Locally to me, a couple had their children removed and she had to sort the house before they were returned. I believe he had to stay out of the family home because he was the hoarder. They were both outwardly upstanding citizens and worked at our local university. The pictures of their house were a 4 on that scale.

Neglect is something that is persistent and chronic which this does appear to be. Neglect has many different branches. The children appear well ok fair enough but if the home is unhygienic and cluttered this will have a knock on effect.

• lack of clean dishes and kitchen space meaning that nutrition may be poor. Impact on physical health. Does they attend medical appointments when required including the dentist.
• are they able to get a bath and have suitable products to get clean. Such as toothbrushes, toothpaste and clean towels.
• how are they able to do their homework properly so what is their education like how are they doing in school.
• do they have suitable beds and bedding with space to sleep on.

What does the mum do at night time when the children are in bed. Does she struggle to care for the children.

I think it's at the stage now you need to just say next time you are there that the place has gotten worse and you want to help her and just get up and help.

I agree with the "blunt" post on page 1. You need to lay it out as a safeguarding concern. You need to give a specific day and time that you'll come and help - "I'll come over on Sunday at 10am" - and mean business. Bring bin bags, clothes and disinfectant.

But by the Mumsnet old adage "do not give more of yourself that you have to spare". It might be messy again in 3 weeks, but your help will reset the dial.

When we met DH lived in a house (alone following bereavement) that was a 5 or 6 on those scales. He said once there were 3 takeaway pizza boxes on the floor, chucked there on his lowest days, then what's a fourth one matter even when you're having a "good day". He never felt well enough to tackle it, but when he started to feel less bad / depressed and it upset him. Fwiw he is neurodivergent and demand avoidant as you think your friend might be. And I wouldn't rule out depressed - she's clearly got self esteem issues at the least if she thinks subjecting herself to this environment is ok.

Good luck OP. She's lucky to have you.

No, she shouldn’t ring the police.
And you cannot push your standards on others.
I have a friend who babysits for a SW and guess what the SW’s house is cluttered and dirty but the children are loved and cared for.

This is one of the most helpful things I’ve ever seen on here!
We’ve all got ADHD, but manage to keep the downstairs rooms at 1 or occasionally 2. Children’s rooms are invariably 4. Our hovers between 1 and 2.
@AmysFriend if you suspect ADHD, you might try this: turn up, put on great dance music and start washing up. If she has the same type of ADHD as I have, she’ll join in and enjoy it. On the other hand, she might be different. But talking to her and expecting her to get over the hump of starting this huge, overwhelming job all on her own just won’t work.
i got my son to tidy his room by asking for it as a birthday present. He thought I was mad.

The only thing I can add to this is offering to help clear the garden and put the trampoline up. Because that is not a 1 man job and it probably just depresses her seeing it cluttering up her living room yet unable to get it outside and put up by herself.

There are levels of squalor

The Op doesn’t want it to reach the bottom

Loved and cared for? What do you mean by ‘cared for’?