Nottingham attacks - verdict

[DrunkenElephant]

I live in Nottingham and feel terribly sad reading the news today.

Could these deaths have been avoided if the police and mental health agencies had done more? But then how can more be done when services are on their knees?

I don’t know the answer to either question, but my hearts go out to the families of Barnaby, Grace and Ian.

You can just lock people up indefinitely because they have experienced a severe psychosis but no crime has been commited. These are people. My friend has times of remission and wellness where for as long as sometimes a couple of years he would be a functioning happy person with compassion, and high creativity before he'd end up developing a severe psychosis again and be back in hospital. You can't just lock people up because they have an illness. That's just not ok.

There is a difference between being in control over actions and being so delusional that you are making choices with your actions that are not based in any real sense of reality, and that is what is being talked about here.

You are so rude on this thread, over and over.

I actually completely agree, normally. I just think if someone has killed three people while psychotic, the risk of a relapse happening outside hospital (and relapses can happen despite your best intentions and efforts, and it's important to bear in mind that antipsychotics are not a miracle cure) then in an exceptional case like this one, even a small risk is too great.

People don't want to engage with what the actual law is though ...so easy to sit on the internet and decide they know better.

(I wish everyone had to study some legal basics at school)

I don't realistically think this man will ever be released based on his unlikelyness to recover, be trusted to take meds, the risk of him offending again, and how difficult it can be to get long term inpatient out of a facility when when they are ready for release. I just can't really see it happening for all the reasons you say.

Personally though I do think if by some miracle, like medical advancement or something he is completely cured and absolutely deemed by many professionals to not be a risk I don't fundamentally have a problem with him being released once a normal sentence for manslaughter has been spent. At that point he would understand what he had done. To have to live with knowing you brutally murdered people is a big punishment in itself, his life is completely destroyed, if he truly was recovered then I don't see the point of keeping him locked up BUT I mean there is not a cure for his condition so thats just a thought experiment, he will never be considered well enough and to have such low level risk that he would be suitable for release. This man will die in hospital.

Tbh, I think if he recovers to the extent that he understands what he has done, there's a very good chance he will kill himself. I know I wouldn't be able to live with it, and people with schizophrenia have very high rates of suicide anyway. Like I said, it's a fucker of an illness.

Yeah that level of trauma would be too much for most people I think and would open up a whole load of new mental health problems

@Totallymessed I'm sorry too, genuinely. It's such a trggering thing, I just thought you may have been like some of the other posters but I'm sorry it's shit all round and I hope you are ok, I didn't mean to cause offence 😫 I feel bad now 😭❤️

@Babyroobs no you are actually.

@Hibye23289 please don't feel bad, I can only imagine how terrible it must be to see someone you love suffering so much.

@Totallymessed I know but you also know it too and obviously there was a misunderstanding/miscommunication. Sorry again x

Once again, he WAS charged with murder.

No one cannot be 'charged' with manslaughter with diminished responsibility

If there had been any doubt about the psychiatric evidence, it would have been a murder trial, where the main argument and cross examination would have been of the psychiatrists.

In cases like this, both the prosecution and the defence instruct independent psychiatrists and had there been any doubt, the CPS would have proceeded with the trial, which would have been pretty traumatic for all concerned, especially the families.

In this case, all the experts agreed. All the conditions for the PARTIAL psychiatric defence of Manslaughter with Diminished Responsibility were met. Hence CPS accepted this plea. If they had gone through a full trial it would have been the same outcome.

And yes, as PP have said, a secure psychiatric facility is certainly no bed of roses, in fact in many ways it is worse than prison.

Yes, this is true. However, the evidence suggested the link is true only in so far as the individuals concerned were already predisposed to developing a psychotic illness.

I think most people would agree with you that the only way for society to be safe from the actions of very mentally ill people is for those people to have access to better and more consistent mental health facilities. Right now this is not the case - there are very very few beds available in secure units (12 women and 12 men for the whole of birmingham as i last recall for example) so as soon as someone is vaguely better they are discharged to make space for someone even sicker. But then there’s no budget or facility for proper follow up, mental health nurses don’t show etc. It would take soooo much funding to fix this.

As for whether someone with Schizophrenia has control over themselves. I’ll use the term ‘psychotic episode’ as this can be caused by things other than Schizophrenia. I have been unfortunate enough to witness this first hand with loved ones and i can say when someone is in a deep psychotic episode they are not in their right mind. They might have ‘control’ in the sense they can walk and talk, but the whole concept of ‘control’ doesn’t make any sense when they are in a completely altered reality.

So yes, my relative was ‘in control’ when she cut all the wires in the house, tried to burn it down and nicked a homeless man’s clothes to disguise herself. But she was doing this because she genuinely truly believed she was a spy and was being followed.

When she emerged from her state she was utterly mortified. She never ever would have done such things in her right mind. She’s a lovely person. Until the next episode when she does mad things again. It’s hard.

She described psychosis as like being in a nightmare, where everything is disjointed and you can’t remember what you did 5 minutes ago and you are convinced people are in danger and you are saving them.

IMHO, if he consciously didn't take medicine (I don't know if he did), it should be treated as a murder. Same as drunk/on high people committing crime

I'm with you on this, and I say that as somebody with a family member who has a diagnosis of schizophrenia.

That same person thinks it's funny that she can commit crimes and "the police can't do anything" about it.

She doesn't mind being sectioned because it allows her to save money on food and bills!

She knows what she's doing when she stops taking her medication.

Some of these people take the absolute piss.

This man should be in prison. They have a medical wing, stick him on there until he takes his medication.

Those poor people, my heart goes out to their families.

Edited to add:

It's so tiresome every time somebody with a MH diagnosis commits a crime people say that the authorities could have done more to prevent it. What do you think they can do? Force feed them their medication? It takes months to get somebody sectioned, even when somebody is already clearly delusional.

My relative is visited at home every day/every other day so the team can observe her taking her morning medication. She gets around that by just taking the morning dose, under their supervision. She throws the evening dose away. Then she just stops letting them in. They can't be there twice a day, seven days a week. They have so many patients on their caseload.

Yes they have a mental illness, millions of us do, but we still have a personal responsibility to take our medication. If you won't, and you do horrendous things like this, you need to be in prison.

the problem,with posts saying CMHT Should force medication is, they’re all bluster and they are absolutely not based in fact and are unrealistic .

Such posts doesn’t reflect the model community teams have to work to. Community mental health team cannot compulsorily , impose or demand that client takes medication. A CTO community treatment order can compel individual to take medication or be recalled to hospital. If There is no CTO compelling client to take medication or be recalled then medicine can’t be forced upon individuals.

I have posted before arranging an MHA Assessment takes weeks. Yes Weeks, and requires police to attend. Not any police, specialist MH police. A slot needs to be available. @IsPutinDeadYet is correct it takes time eg weeks to arrange this.

There are some very illiberal posts regards mental illness and they represent the stigma and prejudice that exists in society.

@golf7 is a prison officer who has explained why unstable mentally unwell individuals cannot be managed in prison and need to be in a secure hospital setting . Prison hospital wings are not equipped or staffed to manage such patients

Manslaughter in community , This is rare event. Individuals with schizophrenia rarely kill. When it does happen it is obviously noteworthy and there will be a case review and scrutiny of the events. Serious case review will examine the timeline and review actions of the health and social care staff and statutory agencies

The humanity of a society is observable in how it manages social issues, dysfunction, and mental illness. The responses and measures put in place by society to manage such inevitable events. Unfortunately risk can never be eliminated

More men murder their partners annually than mentally unwell individuals kill members of public .

IMHO, if he consciously didn't take medicine (I don't know if he did), it should be treated as a murder. Same as drunk/on high people committing crime

It's not in any way comparable with people who have drunk or drugged themselves into a condition where they are dangerous. A mentally ill person may well fail to take medicine precisely because of the mental illness -- they genuinely believe they don't need it, they think it's poisoning them, or whatever.

They're reviewing it now. The family weren't properly consulted re the manslaughter plea.

Why should the victims' families be consulted? This is about the law, and expert testimony from psychiatrists, surely?

Did anyone see the parents of Barnaby on GMB the other day-they said VC didn't get assessed right after the killings, not for many weeks-can this be right? Just sounds like more failings all around. I think from what I understood of their interview, they don't believe he was actively psychotic at the time (or this is what they want to find out) also the fact they have CCTV of him walking around and they think he isn't acting psychotic in it-but really I doubt you could tell someone's mental state just from them walking around and seemingly not causing trouble. Also, what would his motive for murder be if he was sane?

There was another terrible case where a teen suffering from mental illness (I think Schizophrenia) stabbed a dog walker to death and his mother wanted an apology from the mental health services on behalf of both her and her son and the dog walker's family. She had warned services he was collecting knives and was terrified of him-they'd released him back out from hospital to her, as they so often try to do even though she'd said this was a really bad idea. I wonder what people's thoughts on that case are, perhaps people have more sympathy because he was younger?

Anyway back to VC-the parents of Barnaby know VC has a mental illness, they just question whether he was ill enough not to know what he was doing at the time of the killings. But will we ever know? Especially if no assessment was done on him for sometime afterwards.

The parents of both Barnaby and Grace have seen more evidence than the posters on here who are insisting the killer didn't have capacity.

There is a punitive element about prison that can't be dismissed. Lucy Letby is imprisoned not for public protection (she wouldn't be getting neonatal nursing jobs any time soon) but for a punishment for severe crimes. There is no sense the goal is to rehabilitate for release into spciety. Justice needs to be seen to be done for the public interest.

The punitive element is missing in this case due to severe mental illness and it must be galling for the family to see the killer treated as a patient in a hospital (though obviously without liberty). The killer will not see the same level of deprivation of liberty as other prisoners and this is something the public I feel want rectified.

The family and public feel this man is criminal and deserve the acknowledgment of a prison sentence.

Wasn’t Ian Huntley found guilty of murder but then went to Rampton rather than prison? So it must have been felt he was mentally ill? But was still able to be guilty of murder.

@mids2019 do you know what it's like in a secure mental hospital, or in a forensic unit in an ordinary psych hospital?

There is less liberty than in prison.

Sadly this is true for acute wards in ordinary psych wards as well - they aren't therapeutic environments, there can be nothing to do, nothing to read, no facilities, no exercise, no internet - and sometimes, not even caffeine in the tea and coffee supplied.

Any number of people become mentally ill while they are in prison. The decision as to whether they are charged with/found guilty of murder relates to their mental health at the time of the incident for which they are investigated.

Also, there are different types of mental illness. In the case of the Nottingham attacks the killer was demonstrably suffering from very severe paranoid schizophrenia before and during the attack, which undermined his responsibility for his actions. Huntley was assessed during his pre-trial detention as not not suffering from any psychotic illness such as schizophrenia, paranoid disorder or manic depressive psychosis.

As I recall he did become mentally unwell, but this was more to do with the distress involved in being caught and having to begin to acknowledge the appalling thing that he had done. Very different from the kind of mental illness that warrants a finding of diminished responsibility.