Nottingham attacks - verdict

[DrunkenElephant]

I live in Nottingham and feel terribly sad reading the news today.

Could these deaths have been avoided if the police and mental health agencies had done more? But then how can more be done when services are on their knees?

I don’t know the answer to either question, but my hearts go out to the families of Barnaby, Grace and Ian.

@TeenLifeMum are you going to elaborate on your point regard professional culpability? You have said if he’s seen as not being fully responsible then others are also culpable I am asking you to elaborate upon this

who is culpable?
what would you do about it?

Ok it’s helpful to understand what would be useful. I’m sure when you’re close it feels very consuming but I don’t have experience in daily life

It sounds as if this would help him a lot. I guess the hard part is where someone is resistant to contact, won’t take meds and then has a psychotic episode

Idk anything about the man who perpetrated these crimes and whether daily visits would have stopped this outcome

I have a relative who’s a forensic social worker with 30yrs experience who’s incensed by this case. So many failings. The police should have done their job. If they had he would have had multiple charges against him. He should have then been placed on a forensic hospital order, not a civil section, which would have ensured he was properly treated and followed up and returned to hospital if he stopped taking medication. He was not adequately treated for schizophrenia, given that he had brief admissions and relapses. It’s actually very treatable now and he could have recovered had he been placed under the correct order.

He’s now detained under the mental health act, not in the prison system. Which has far less stringent criteria for release than a parole board. Put simply it would actually be easy for him to be potentially released. The judge is incorrect to say he will spend the rest of his life detained. Hybrid orders are used very infrequently but this is exactly the sort of case where they should have been. There was pre meditation too. He told his brother not to visit him when he went to prison.

@Grandmasswag do you know why he told his brother not to visit him? Its not uncommon for men not to want visits when they are inside. Lots of reasons why. Does anyone know in his case why he said that?

I have replied to my own question. You can now reply to this question rather than just repeating back to me.

I don’t think it matters particularly. Just the fact that he knew he was going to prison/hospital shows pre meditation. He knew he was going to commit these atrocities.

@Grandmasswag

Thanks for your post, very interesting.

He’s now detained under the mental health act, not in the prison system. Which has far less stringent criteria for release than a parole board

Especially that bit.

@Zone2NorthLondon er… I did. Not hunting through finding it now but Emma (Barnaby’s mum) covered it.

The families. I can’t even imagine how they are feeling. Absolutely no justice whatsoever.

That bit and also this bit:
Put simply it would actually be easy for him to be potentially released. The judge is incorrect to say he will spend the rest of his life detained.

While others have said it would actually be harder for him to be released from such an institution.

Not sure what to believe really.

What do you mean, absolutely no justice whatsoever? The guy is locked away for the rest of his life.

@golf7 i clearly stated he should be in hospital but with the plan to move to prison if his health improved. A previous poster articulated this well so taken from them:

”He’s now detained under the mental health act, not in the prison system. Which has far less stringent criteria for release than a parole board. Put simply it would actually be easy for him to be potentially released.”

This is why I believe a hybrid order should have been imposed. Using my common sense. I’m happy for us to disagree but are you this condescending in real life?

It’s not harder. The safeguards provided by the mental health act would mean that a mental health tribunal would be legally required to discharge him if he was not deemed to be detainable because he had recovered sufficiently (quite likely with treatment). Had he been placed in the prison system (hybrid order) he would have to convince a parole board and then be liable to be recalled to prison under much stricter conditions. A total shit show all round.

Yes you are correct.

They can’t detain him if he recovers from his mental illness! Something has gone very very wrong with this case. You’d never say ‘you’re detained under the MH act for life’. People can and do recover from mental illness and new treatments for schizophrenia are very effective.

No you have made global statements that you then don’t elaborate upon
Please elaborate on the culpability of professionals and what you would do?
You wrote a yea but, no but, brief reply post that was vague

that bit is actually not correct. He will be on a forensic (MoJ) section in a secure hospital. It is actually really, really difficult to meet the criteria to be released in this type of situation and a person typically is much less likely to ever be released than if they had gone to prison. (Iv'e worked in secure mental health hospitals)

He will be detained on a forensic section, not a civil one. There all sorts of addtional criteria and he will be detained to a secure hospital. It is actually harder to be released from these types of MoJ sections than to be released from prison. There is also always the option of transfer back to prison if that becomes appropriate.

he has been detained under s37/41 hospital order and will go to secure hospital. His presentation and illness cannot be safely or adequately managed in prison. He is too unwell. Prison doesn’t have the facilities or trained staff to manage his illness. Prison isn’t the environment to manage and treat schizophrenia. He has not been offered a cushy setting, as an alternative to prison.he will have conditions applied and be closely monitored on arrival.

people perceive prison as more draconian. Prohibitive punishment and that’s why it’s ( falsely) being laboured as an option

He cannot be safely and adequately treated in prison. hence the hospital order

He will only be eligible for tribunal after a period of assessment & monitoring
We are talking years, even then it is evidence based and there will need to be robust clinical evidence eg meds compliance, settled behaviour, participation in treatment, OT, SW and nursing reports. A psychiatric report. Only a tier 1 tribunal or Secretary of State for justice can determine that he no longer poses a risk to self or others.

@Zone2NorthLondon Without the findings of serious case review report it is impossible for me to specific name who is culpable from a professional point of view. Everything I’ve read indicates that there were professional failings - he’d demonstrated he was a risk and there were numerous flags that weren’t followed up.

You do realise this is a forum and not a peer reviewed multi-disciplinary professional discussion panel? Not sure writing thousands of words with references is really the nature of mn.

And what would I do?

I would want to see demonstrable learnings and understand how those learnings are shared across the relevant multi-disciplinary teams in the country.

They say it was murder and it actually was as their loved ones were knifed to death. There’s no getting around that fact sadly.

@ButterCrackers, in the perpetrator's head other people were dangerous and were going to attack him. If you kill someone in self defence, it is not murder. If you are suffering from such serious mental illness that you believe you have to kill someone in self defence, that also is not murder. There's no getting around that fact.

"They" are already irreparably harmed by the dreadful mental illness they are suffering. You might as well ask why does that have to happen?

You do realise if you make verbose but inaccurate statements you’ll be challenged
It is easy to all bombastic statements…culpability…The professionals they are all getting done for manslaughter . Less easy to rationalise or justify what you mean or what sanctions are available to you to get staff done

As I mentioned I’m certainly not an expert but have discussed the case extensively with a relative who is, and their view is that he could get released more easily from a section 37/41. Prison system can impose much stricter recall conditions.