Nottingham attacks - verdict

[DrunkenElephant]

I live in Nottingham and feel terribly sad reading the news today.

Could these deaths have been avoided if the police and mental health agencies had done more? But then how can more be done when services are on their knees?

I don’t know the answer to either question, but my hearts go out to the families of Barnaby, Grace and Ian.

Your “expert” is wrong or you’ve misunderstood

They’ve worked in the field for 30 years and they are highly respected. They’ve worked day in and out with people like Calocane in prison/ hospitals and in the community. They have given evidence to hundreds of tribunals/ parole hearings. I fully trust their opinion.

yes sure thing

I’m genuinely not being toady but may I ask why you’re so sure this is the correct decision? Which field do you work in? And do you believe that he will never be released? Does section 37/41 have the same powers to recall him for instance if he refuses to take his medication? Given that he had an extensive history ‘minor’ crimes and violence do you not think he should have been detained under hybrid? Do you think he is likely to recover from schizophrenia? Do you not think the crime was pre meditated?

I know this is from the Daily Fail and many won’t want to read it for that reason but I think it’s worth sharing here. It explains some of the various failings the families are very angry about. Personally I think the right decision was made to detain VC in a secure psychiatric unit definitely but I can absolutely understand why the family feel more could have been done.

Barnaby Webber's mother opens her heart to The Mail

https://mol.im/a/13010823

Not no justices. Peter Sutcliffe spent 32 years in Broadmoor until he died. He was never going to be released and I’m certain this guy won’t be either.

But Sutcliffe was detained within the prison system. He was transferred back to prison once his mental illness (debatable in his case) was under control.

The thing is the people on here, including myself who have tried to explain and sound like we are defending the man who did this are not disagreeing that it is an awful act and awful for the families, we aren't dismissing that but what we are saying is throwing around murder, why didn't he take his meds, he intended this by getting a knife, no it really wasn't a choice, it is like being posessed by an outer body experience, being posessed by a voice in your head, he could not know what was real or not, he would have believed the voices in his head as much as we believe the sky is blue. Yes it isn't as bad as killing people but if someone has dementia and doesn't recognise their family, we don't say oh come on you've known them for 40 years you gave birth to them, you're choosing not to remember them, no seriously they have zero control over this but when someone has schizoprenia it is acceptable to call them maniacs, 'they' shouldn't be let out like they are animals, of course they knew right from wrong. I don't know why it's ok to sympathise with PND, PTSD, depression, anxiety, dementia etc but when it comes to schizoprenia you can get called every name under the sun and it's ok because every single person who has this obviously took drugs and chooses to murder people.

There are a few posters I am thankful for their comments @golf7 @Zone2NorthLondon @LakieLady @Universalsnail

Because he wasn’t diagnosed until after he was sentenced.

If he had been, he too may have been detained in hospital from the start. All speculation, but the cases aren’t the same.

But released with requirements to engage with continued treatment?

Sutcliffe was found by psychiatrists to have evidence of schizophrenia, severe delusions that were linked to his killings at the time of trial. The judge dismissed it. I really can’t imagine a MN thread of everyone saying oh poor Peter didn’t know what he was doing, although it would be mighty interesting to see. Calocanes delusions were centred on the government. It’s not clear how that translated to killing 3 members of the public and trying to kill 3 more. He knew of his diagnosis. He had bought weapons, he knew he was going to commit a serious crime. He absolutely has untreated schizophrenia he was failed by the police and MH services that could have enforced treatment before. However I don’t see why they shouldn’t both be under hybrid orders where once stable they are returned to the prison system, given that with forced treatment he is quite likely to make a recovery.

@DrunkenElephant while I understand your motivation, I'm not sure it's in the spirit of the MH board to send people off to look for threads, especially as you are being relatively specific.

Well no one knows for sure his level of understanding of his illness but he’d been in and out of hospital. It was not his first rodeo and lots of schizophrenics know the voices they hear/delusions they have aren’t ‘them’. Do you think Sutcliffe heard voices that told him to rid the world of prostitutes? No one is saying the man isn’t ill. No one is saying he didn’t have some diminished responsibility. There are times when it’s appropriate to be sentenced to the prison system whilst also receiving treatment in a secure hospital.

I remember now. Details had eluded me but my point being that people can be held for a very long time in somewhere like Broadmoor.

@MysteriousInspector you are right, I can’t edit so I’ll ask MN to remove.

I’m not sure people experiencing delusions know they aren’t real actually.

It’s simply not the case that if someone’s mental health improves they are released. He will be on a 37/41 section it’s also about risk. Many patients mh improved once they are taking regular medication, have routine in their life, not using substances and are eating a balanced diet but that doesn’t mean that risk is still not present.

I can assure you many under section 37/41 and then once discharged are on section 42/CTO wish they had gone through the prison system as there is far less interference in their lives and often living in the community having been in prison for far less time for the same index offence

we really need to move away from thinking about prison is punishment anything else is the easier route it’s just utter nonsense

Once he is moved into the prison system though and no longer under a section treatment and medication can no longer be forced in which case he he would then get sick again, likely hide it from people for a long time until he then hurts someone in prison, and then back to hospital he would go.

High security criminal psychiatric hospitals are not nice places. I don't understand why people are obsessed with the idea he shouldn't be there opposed to in prison as if prison is worse and hospital a nice place. He should be where there is the ability to correctly treat him and keep him in treatment.

I don't know enough about Peter Sutcliffes mental state at the time of his crimes but he was in deed in active psychosis at the time then yes he should have also been permanently houses in a psychiatric secure unit and not a prison.

No many people experiencing psychosis or schizophrenia do not understand their hallucinations and delusions are not real. Many people on full psychosis really really believe that their delusions are actual reality. My friend honestly truly believed his auditory hallucinations were the voice of God talking to him because he was the Messiah. Each time he recovered in treatment he would start to understand that it wasn't actually God, then he'd get better for a while, stop taking his medication and then before long he would truly completely believe that he was the Messiah and he was having actual real conversations with God again

@Grandmasswag you can't imagine a thread on mn saying oh poor Peter because back in the day there was less knowledge and more ignorance to the illness, although actually I don't know what has changed years on.

Even though the killings weren't to do with the government how do you know that he didn't think those people worked for them, this is it he can't think straight and we can't rationalise his thinking because we are of sound mind. You seem to think you have got in their heads and know what they were thinking, maybe Sutcliffe did hear voices saying kill all prositutes and you say most schizoprenics know the voices in their heads aren't them, how do you know this?

I can only speak from my personal experiences with my Mum and husband but generally they believed the voices were real less and less as they became better and gained more insight. In the heights of their illness they - particularly my Mum- had completely lost touch with reality and had in effect entered a different reality. She genuinely believed she had a group of spirit guides talking to her and this was fed by her attending spirtualist church - it affirmed to her that they were real. She had a lot of delusions. But it was only as she became better that she began to be able to separate them. She still “heard” them but she knew they weren’t there.

It’s important to remember though that just because there are similarities in people with schizophrenia it’s also fair to say no two people generally have the same issues, awareness, choices and voices. It’s all so complex.

Often they do know the voices aren't them (but in fact their own mind has generated them, so in that sense they are).

AIUI voices can be very insistent. The person often tries to resist them, but is worn down by constant repetition. Sometimes I suspect they give in just to get the terrible thing (that they've been resisting for days) over with. Hoping for some peace

I think the Sutcliffe case is interesting and raises some interesting points. Bear in mind it was 1981 and a different time then to how we know life, prison and mental health services to be now.

He claimed to hear voices when spoken to be psychiatrists before his trial. An article I have just read from the time claims this is at odds with the account he gave police after his arrest.

Many people on this thread have given harrowing accounts of this illness and how it presents in their loved ones. When in the full grip of an acute episode they are unable to live life like you or I. Sutcliffe did. He had friends, a job, he went out socially and no one suspected there was anything 'wrong with him' or that he was unwell at any point. OK.. he could have hidden it well. But from what people are saying here and what I have seen professionally I think it would be next to impossible.

It's also interesting for a case as big as his with 13 deceased victims and others who survived his attacks the trial itself was done and dusted inside 3 weeks. Incredibly quick. Bear in mind his offending had gone on for a substantial period of time and the police were at a loss to catch him it seems it was hurried through the courts and him locked away as fast as possible most likely in a large part due to the public feeling around the case. Justice being seen to be done.

I am not saying he didn't commit these crimes I should add . I am just saying it seemed a bloody quick trial for such an enormous case with so many people involved.

He was sentenced to a minimum 30 years.it wasn't until later it was converted to a whole life order. Nowadays it would be a whole life order with no chance of release from the get go.