Nottingham attacks - verdict

[DrunkenElephant]

I live in Nottingham and feel terribly sad reading the news today.

Could these deaths have been avoided if the police and mental health agencies had done more? But then how can more be done when services are on their knees?

I don’t know the answer to either question, but my hearts go out to the families of Barnaby, Grace and Ian.

this is the definition of murder under UK Law

• of sound mind and discretion (sane)
• unlawfully kills (not self-defence or other justified killing)
• any reasonable creature (a human being)
• in being (born alive and breathing through its own lungs)
• under the King's Peace (not in wartime)
• with intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm

someone who isn't of sound mind has diminished responsibility because you don't know if he was of sound mind if it would have happened.

mental health prison is not better than high security prison, it is much much worse

I think the Sutcliffe trial was relatively quick partly because he didn't contest that he had committed each of the killings, so they didn't have to prove that painstakingly each time.

@golf7's analysis is interesting, and really on point - particularly the fact that Sutcliffe was on the face of it living a normal life until then and apparently giving no signs to colleagues etc that he was hearing voices. As against that, no-one really sane murders thirteen women randomly, psychiatrists at the time of the trial diagnosed him as having paranoid schizophrenia and stuck to that diagnosis, and he was subsequently committed under the Mental Health Act.

Also just my feeling here but @TeenLifeMum commented earlier that no one can be well to commit most crimes. I agree. We almost read of some shocking crimes on what feels like a daily basis. I have come across many more which aren't widely reported
Where I sit there and think how the hell could anyone in their right mind do that. I do genuinely wonder how many people are missed in the system and how many people may not have a diagnosis and fit the strict criteria of diagnosis for certain mental illnesses but clearly have something wrong with them.

One thing we can all agree on I think is when it goes wrong it goes spectacularly wrong. It's going wrong on a daily basis but most of us don't hear of the cases as they aren't all high profile enough.

The police are overstretched and in many cases burnt out. We all want to see them catching what we deem to be proper criminals. Maybe a dedicated emergency mental health service is the answer . But again it's funding it staffing it and training those staff.

Again once these ill offenders or those at risk of harm or offending are flagged up it's actually finding them. Many live transient lives. Changing their names using aliases and being hard to locate..They can't be forced to engage. A change to the law to make it easier to hold people who have committed no crime who might be a risk.. but again where do we put them..bed spaces are next to non existent. Patients try and get help and get lost in this system..

24 hrs in police custody had such an episode recently. A man with declining mental health having paranoid delusions called police out got lost in the system and next thing he was waving guns about an armed seige was taking place and he ended up in prison.

Once in prison his mental state is most likely to decline further. I work alot of night shifts in my establishment. We have men who come in from police custody some via the courts awaiting trial. Some come via the bracton centre and I have met some from Broadmoor hospital. In many cases its about getting them just well enough that they have capacity to be put through a trial. We also hold sentenced prisoners before they are moved on to serve longer sentences elsewhere (whole life tariff prisoners in some cases) as well as men from the local area who will do their full short sentence with us.

Often they don't have their medication in possession so it's down to them being unlocked at the right time to come out and get it. They cannot bring their medication from outside in with them. They have to see one of our Dr's and be prescribed it here. Not uncommon at all for me to be called to a door in the middle of the night by someone in acute metal crisis who hasn't had their sleeping meds or they were given them in the afternoon . Or they haven't had their anti psychotic medication as it's been a week and it's not been written up for them.

Men on dirty protest.. men who don't meet the criteria for secure hospital but quite clearly aren't well and really shouldn't be there. We are very limited what we can do with them and they are pushed pillar to post . Then they are let out. The agencies needed and the coat of all this is enormous. They have tenancies they need help maintaining . They need help to try and find work which is very difficult. There's substance misuse in there. Even down to what happens to their dog when they come into prison if there's no one to care for it. Children who end up in care . Probation trying to monitor them. They then might break the conditions of their licence or HDC . Then they need finding and bringing back which brings us back round to the police and the whole cycle starts again.

The public are rightly fed up hearing these cases and in some instances living next door to people who are unwell like this or offend. The staff who work in these organisations are tired , burnt out and frustrated by it all. Our hands are tired and there's almost sod all we can do about it . When it all goes south the media and public blame us .

Building more prions isn't a vote winner with most of the electorate. People want the money put into schools and hospitals. Not into people like this sadly . What the answer is I really don't know. The entire thing is broken and in a few months or years we will be back here discussing the next case ..because there will be another one

this can be said for so many scenarios, for GPs, for Police, for corporations.

thats not how it works.

He is in prison. he is in a psychiatric hospital prison.

@golf7 Maybe a dedicated emergency mental health service is the answer . But again it's funding it staffing it and training those staff.
Who'd want to be these staff when as you can see from posts on here when people want to hold you accountable for being horrible and forcibly medicating someone, but then also holding you accountable for what someone does when unwell?

In reality I suspect a lot of murderers have some sort of underlying mental illness or could be described as being in psychotic state or emotionally unbalanced when committing such a crime. Are we saying someone like Lucy Letby was truly of sound mind and that there was no fundamental mental illness?

I can therefore see how mental illness can be used as an 'excuse' to not feel the full force of the judicial system. I have no doubt clinically the killer in this case was psychotic and the legal process was correct but perceptions matter. The law one could argue should not work in a vacuum and is ultimately there e to serve society. We quite rightly dislike political or public interference with the judiciary but in this particular rate instance the CPS should have taken need of public reaction and perhaps anticipated what now looks like a grievous insult to a bereft family and a sentence which does not lie well with significant numbers of people.

I think there is a public desire to frame these crimes as the acts they were i.e. murders. It is therefore fitting that the killer is given the title murderer. Manslaughter with diminished responsibility has in the past been used as conviction for women abused for many years who then kill their husbands out of desperation i.e. there is a public perception that there should be an element of sympathy for the victim which there isn't really in this case.

The family will not feel justice is done if they feel the convicted is a 'patient' rather than prisoner

The role of judiciary isn’t to appease families or deliver a bespoke verdict that they consider adequate. Law is meant to be fair,impartial, not impacted by public outcry.

This is a ghastly event 3 died and 3 suffered vehicle impact injuries. Dreadful. Violent and shocking , understandably family and those affected are angry and want answers or to see changes made

Role of law is to enact good practice,follow guidelines, seek expert opinion and formulate a verdict. Law isn’t there to satisfy public opinion (although of course it happens). Certain Cases cases sit uncomfortably with media and or public and do galvanise a wave of opinion.
In this case it taps into misunderstandings regard what processes and actions are available to NHS. I’ve discussed this extensively in previous posts. In summary, in In the community and individual cannot be compelled to forcibly take medication that can only happen in a hospital setting.

So this perpetrator was unmedicated in the community and that was known however health staff have no authority to impose medication upon him, indeed had medication been forced health staff would face sanctions. Regard the warrant, that is executed by police if they can find the individual. Health staff have no role in detaining an individual who has an outstanding warrant. Finally in community an unwell individual can be detained and taken to hospital under MHAAx or police use of s136. Health staff cannot compel or detain an individual. Planning an MHAAx need 2 psychiatrist and AMHP AND police, not any police a team of MH police. There are limited slots and a planned MHAAx can take WEEKS to arrange. I appreciate this all seems convoluted and why can’t it be faster. Well these are the rules we work in. In the media there is a wilful misunderstanding they could and should exp,Ian process but never do. It’s always left unchallenged the notion of inertia or complacency. Also the sheer pressures, number of competing demands, staff vacancies all contribute to a mental health system under severe pressure

Zone2NorthLondon. Thank you for your post. Sometimes something happens that is so shocking that public opinion does push for change. Obviously it seems things are not working when events such as the Nottingham attacks happen. Do you think the services need more funding generally , does the law need to change regarding medication for dangerous individuals or do you think care in the community has failed and we need more in patient care. Just wondering your opinion as a professional?

If someone is unable as a result of mental illness to frame the necessary intention for the crime of murder, then it simply cannot be murder. It is not the case that people ever generally perceived manslaughter with diminished responsibility to relate only to abused wives; it was always available as a defence in a wide spectrum of scenarios, including for instance where someone had been drugged.

If we started saying that killing without intent was murder, what would that make killing with intent?

There is a difference between not being of sound mind as in depressed, distressed, emotional unregulated, obsessive etc because the level of awareness is still there. I have been personally in some extremely distressed states and absolutely not been of sound mind however you are still able to understand right from wrong and that killing is murder in that state of mind. You are still able to try and take steps to prevent something bad happening like calling a crisis line, going to bed to sob whatever

Severe psychosis is something else. You are often talking about people who have had such a break from reality that they can not reliably understand that killing is wrong or even in some cases understand that when they stabbed someone they have ended a life.

You just came compare deep psychosis to other mental illness in that way and that has to be considered within the justice system

I'd Letby has been diagnosed with psychosis or tbh even muchausens I would say she also would need housing in a secure mental health facility not prison.

I am a Nottingham resident, I also work in community care. I am not medically trained but I have had contact with the mental health teams who the killer was under and have also spent time on high and medium secure wards.
I think there probably were some missed opportunities but for all the reasons those who work in the profession have mentioned I can understand these.
There has been a lot in the news recently about the police specifically missing the chances to prevent deaths and murder. Instead of blaming them, why are we not wondering why everyone of our core society services are falling apart?
In terms of the sentencing, I get why the public think this is a soft option. Until you have experienced these settings, I don't think you can understand. Our hospital settings are still akin to Victorian workhouses. I think it is highly unlikely, he will ever be classed as safe to leave. I once helped someone leave one of these hospitals in 2018, he was admitted in 1984 and his index offence was pinching someone's bottom in public. When he did leave hospital it was after 18 months of work and assessment so the MOJ were happy with his release. This was after he has been assessed for a number of years as being ready for release.
Another local experience is around the massive shortage of beds for people where there is a clear need for section. We had days of increasing risk, where all the professionals knew the person needed to be admitted but there was no beds. The police spent a whole day with the person and when the nhs still hadn't found a solution, ended up having to put the person with severe ld and autism into a cell until the nhs found a place.
In the news this week, the hospital and services which the killer was known too has suspended over 30 staff around concerns about treatment and false records.
I am more concerned about the erosion of all services which help prevent incidents like this, rather than if the killer has received an appropriate punishment.

@starrylights absolutely spot on.

I think that’s documented. He was a mechanical engineering student at Nottingham and had to leave due to the onset of mental health problems.

Mechanical engineering at Nottingham is a very hard course to get onto, only for the brightest. At one point he must have also been a bright young person with his life ahead of him. I am sure that bright young person would never have wished to become so ill and kill anyone.

Thank you yes. I can appreciate he must have been very intelligent but it does sound like his mental health deteriorated being away from home . His family were from Haverfordwest. Or perhaps covid bought it on. I know he was a mature student. Although he had a major episode at this time I would be surprised if he had no other issues before even if they were not as serious.
Does anyone know why he changed his name ?

I don’t think it’s really comparable.

Sutcliffe was of sufficiently sound mind to live a ‘normal’ life, hold down a relationship and a job. He planned his murders and concealed his actions.

This guy committed his act in a single spree, with no attempt to conceal his crimes, in full view of cameras and witnesses. He didn’t have a job or a fixed address, was just walking around handing himself in to the authorities and basically begging for help. He was clearly a very very sick man

@Anisette

It's a difficult situation. I suppose legally this all hinges on the definition of intent and I ake your point that with psychosis it is extremely difficult to understand the mental state and the ability of the mind to form intent. Isn't it though up to a court to prove there couldn't conceivably any intent? Is there any objective means to fully tell the depth of psychosis and whether in the depths of that psychosis could part of a very complex brain form that intent?

I agree that legally it possibly is a correct verdict but I think given the heinous nature of the crimes and the extended nature of the killing spree the public and family may expect a verdict that reflects the gravity of the crime nominally. In reality the sentence will not be changed in nature but if a murder verdict aids the family and reflects public opinion is that not an appropriate thing?

@kerstina Schizophrenia typically doesn't present itself until the late teens in men (and slightly later in women I think) so it would be unlikely he would've been mentally ill in his childhood or early teens. My brothers schizophrenia started when he was 18/19 which was right in line with that-he had no issues before that as far as I know. My parents had to call the doctor because of how he was acting and he was sectioned and diagnosed pretty quick (this was 20 years ago, it's not so easy to get someone sectioned now) and then he'll be "back to normal" for a few years then something will trigger the psychosis again. He also drinks a lot which doesn't help-but hard to say if alcohol triggers an episode or whether he gets the episode first and then uses drink to self-medicate.

Exactly. His is also a life destroyed. It's a very sad case.

If the crimes were charged as murder, given the psychiatric reports he would very likely have been found not guilty.

I would probably feel exactly the same if I were a family member, but it wouldn’t mean I was right.

If someone's illness means they have absolutely no control over their actions, then they need to be in hospital permanently. Society should not bear the risk of this man becoming this ill again. And the victims' families should not need to worry that he will be getting out if he is deemed to be "better". And I'm not sure where you have got the idea that people with schizophrenia have no control over their actions.

People with schizophrenia have control of their actions but not in crisis or if psychosis is present . Would that be more of an accurate statement?

Yes. I was diagnosed with schizophrenia 20 years ago and have been living with it for most of my adult life, so yes, I do know a lot about it thanks. So no need to call me a silly twat.

@Hibye23289 I'm sorry about your dad btw, it's a fucker of an illness.