Nottingham attacks - verdict

[DrunkenElephant]

I live in Nottingham and feel terribly sad reading the news today.

Could these deaths have been avoided if the police and mental health agencies had done more? But then how can more be done when services are on their knees?

I don’t know the answer to either question, but my hearts go out to the families of Barnaby, Grace and Ian.

Behaving calmly does not mean mentally well

@Toddlerteaplease exactly. And let's not forget the video of him trying to break into the homeless shelter en route too but thank god someone inside the room put up a fight so he couldn't get inside. He was out that morning to purposely harm, injure and murder innocent people. Personally I feel manslaughter is an absolute injustice.

Because murder requires you to have intent to kill - known legally as “malice afterthought.” Malice aforethought couldn’t be proved in this case, due to the mental health condition of the assailant, hence the manslaughter verdict. (Unlike the US, we don’t have 1st degree murder / 2nd degree murder etc in England. It’s just murder). IIRC from my law degree decades ago, you can’t be charged with manslaughter in England; the charge is always murder, but the verdict can be Not Guilty of Murder but Guilty of Manslaughter by reason of diminished responsibility etc.

Also - very sadly for the victims’ families - it’s a practical question of getting any verdict in order to get the perpetrator put away so he can’t do it to someone else. It’s much easier to prove manslaughter than murder and the main goal here was surely to get the killer put away securely for the rest of his life. Imagine if he’d been found Not Guilty. Sometimes justice being seen to be done isn’t the top priority, awful though that sounds, if there’s a real danger that the killer could be released to kill again in future if the jury don’t find him guilty of murder…

The family agreed with the manslaugher charges apparently. I think pushing for a murder charge would have been tricky due to the uncertainty about his mental health. It trusted him getting off altogether. At least he's now under lock and key.

They have issued a statement saying they were railroaded into accepting it and they do not agree with it. They accept he had severe mental health difficulties but they said they feel let down by the whole system. Their words have been all over the various news sites.

I love in Nottingham as well and I'm so angry at the verdict. I won't give my full opinion as I'll likely be banned but I hope the victims family and the public raise hell about this.

This case is absolutely heartbreaking,cannot imagine how the families keep going.

Agree it is a failure of the govt for under funding and cutting mental health services. I struggle when people outright call people suffering with mental health evil as it shows a level of willful ignorance. I wish these people cared as much when they voted.
I also wondered if, given the cuts to the probation services and the recent escapes and choice to allow violent criminals out due to over crowding, whether the judge thought this man would be more secure from that possibility in a secure hospital.

My son is at Uni of Nottingham. He's walked those streets after a night out many a time. Like many students. That CCTV makes me weep.

Until there’s better funding stuff like this will sadly continue to happen. Which is a tragedy. It’s great with hindsight to say oh he did xyz and nothing was done. But I imagine there’s hundreds if not thousands of people with mental health issues who have done similar level stuff who are still walking about. The nhs can’t deal with all such people as inpatients. The govt wanted care in the community. The people who need help aren’t getting it and are being let down and others are put at risk.

I don't understand why people are angry with the verdict.

The man is in a secure unit and will likely never be released as he is unlikely to ever be deemed safe for release. What else is really needed?

The comment re railroaded - families don’t get to make that call. Very experienced barristers in conjunction with the CPS do. I think some of their statements are very harsh - I’m not one to defend the police either. I understand why, I can’t begin to understand their agony.

Well let’s hope he is never released as we know that this has happened in the past and people have gone on to reoffend.
I think people are angry because he may not have been in his right mind but he does have a criminal mind. Stealing vehicles. Carrying knives, assaulting people , killing people , deliberately running people over.
it is people like him who do nothing to stop the stigma of mentally ill people. In my mind he is a murderer .

@kerstina the “stigma of mentally ill people”? The man has paranoid schizophrenia! This is exactly why we have the mental health act, to protect them and other people from harm.

When Grace's dad, Barnaby's mum and Ian's son each addressed the media, their anger at how they were treated and how they thought the investigation was conducted made me cry. Ian's son James, in particular, made an incredible speech, saying the guy literally got away with murder. You can see all three families are in unison. I hope they do whatever they can to get proper justice.

Yes he's locked away, probably for the rest of his days, but that's not the point, is it? There was (some) premeditation. And if it wasn't for failures by the police and other public services three people might still be alive today.

This is exactly it isn’t it. He should never have been out and about in the first place. He had a history of severe mental illness and assault - against several people, including a police officer. I can completely understand the anger of the families.

This is exactly how I feel. I have not been so upset over a news story in a long time. It may be because I have two kids in their first year at Uni. The video of them walking down the street moments before is just heartbreaking. I cried watching a news report a few months ago from Ian Coates school with the children saying how lovely he was and how he would go overboard decorating their school for Christmas. It is absolutely shocking and heartbreaking..

Shame it didn't protect Barnaby, Grace and Ian

He lacked insight into his illness, precisely because he was so ill. A failure to take meds in this case wasn't irresponsibility or selfishness or any other morally loaded term. It was a function of his very severe, desperately distressing psychosis.

It is a terrible tragedy for the victims and a terrible tragedy for him too. The mental health service is on its knees. It is failing people with appallingly severe illness. And in the small minority of cases where people with psychosis harm others it is failing wider society too. The poor man and his poor victims.

@kerstina good thing he is in a secure hospital then, not a prison with probation https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/oct/23/probation-officers-fear-repeat-of-failings-in-case-as-pressures-mount

I'm struggling to comprehend some of the outrage at the sentence tbh. He clearly is not well enough to be in prison, and would be a danger to staff and other prisoners. Is that what people want instead?

The CPS obviously knew a murder charge would fail, and respectfully its not the families decision. But if they have been misrepresented in the media then that is unacceptable and I can understand their frustration at that.

Even if he had been arrested under the warrant for assault, it seems very presumptive to think he wouldn't have been out on bail anyway?

@Rosecoffeecup yes, i am as well. He will never get out. I can't imagine life in a high security hospital is much better than prison. It seems to me that justice has been served.

The fact that he was convicted for manslaughter and not murder is what I imagine the families are angry about.

But he hasn't got away with murder. He has been detained for likely the rest of his life for killing. That's not getting away with anything. It's a stronger punishment then many people get when actually tried for murder as he wont experience parole in the same way someone not under a section experiences it. He'll likely never be considered safe for release.

I can understand the families feeling like this because they are so emotionally tied to the situation that is bound to impact how they think and feel about it and it is very sad for them, but it makes no sense for anyone else to feel like this.

What more consequences is there meant to be higher then life long detainment?