Voting to "Get the Tories Out" part 2

[AdamRyan]

Follow on to this thread to continue discussion

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4978642-voting-to-get-the-tories-out?page=40&reply=132044464

Aren't there three by elections due?

I think there are potentially other Tory MPs who may get suspended from the commons and so trigger a recall petition, but as far as I know there is some way to go before that point is reached.

Bone and Skidmore are a certain, then there is Benton who is currently suspended and new in Maynard who is under investigation.

I guess Sunak will be in power for quite a while

On the issue of gender an middle ground. How does that work in a way that protects biological females?

Once any male, no matter how well they pass is allowed to play sport as a woman or enter women's rape crisis centres then those spaces are mixed sex and some women are excluded? How can you justify that? Or don't those women count?

Someone mentioned Caster Semenya in the last thread. Semenya has a DSD that only affects males. They are male. How is it fair to female athletes who are banned for doping if their testosterone is at the same level to compete against Semenya or other athletes with similar males DSDs. That's not to say that I don't have sympathy with this athlete's position, I believe they were recruited deliberately by talent scouts who set out to find athletes with this disorder but this is not fair on women, nor is it fair that women have lost out to males like Lia Thomas.

It is easy to say this is just about toilets. It categorically is not about toilets. It's about the ability of women to function freely & fairly in society on terms that are equal to male.

I have sympathy with males with genuine dysphoria but they are not the problem for women to solve and women should not have to make way to accommodate them. Because the minute we do we have to let any male in, there is no purity test for trans people. It is unworkable to suggest that any such 'compromise' for true trans people can exist in a way that if fair to biological women.

@lifeturnsonadime there are posters here who would probably be able to comment on this to your satisfaction, but they have left due to not wanting to discuss other issues.

I am not sure what the middle ground will end up being. What would protecting both trans rights and women's rights look like to you?

The other issue, as it relates to the original post, is to what extent can this be campaigned for within the context of a general election? And if not, then how will policy/law be changed/adjusted?

Which is the third?

I thought Benton.

I just don't think that a middle ground that gives some males access to women's spaces can ever be fair on women. I would happily campaign for better access to third spaces.

Your second question is a good one. I don't suppose this kind of detail can be addressed in the context of a general election. My anxiety about voting for Labour stems from the fact that they are treating women who raise these issues badly now. Look at Rosie Duffield. Look at what David Lammy called women 'rights hoarding dinosaurs' etc. The 'left' globally is pro giving males access to women's spaces internationally and I can't imagine Starmer will want to piss off the left wing press some of which has become intolerable towards women who have concerns about this (looking at the Grauin in particular here). Put short, I don't have any confidence that Starmer and his Labour Party will do anything other than further the wishes of the gender ideologists.

On the other thread people were saying but 'what about other issues that impact women'? I think that if women is something other than biological women then women's rights will erode in all areas. We currently have a scenario where refuges and rape crisis centres can't secure funding from charities unless they will commit to allowing trans women into the centres, what happens to women who are vulnerable and so traumatised that they can't accessed mixed sex facilities? Is anyone thinking about those women?

I'm the parent of children with autism, I know fully well that issues with SEN funding need to be addressed. But I have serious concerns about the impacts of genderism on the autistic people, especially autistic girls. CAMHS have been signposting to the Tavistock and presumably other gender services right left and centre, they tried to do it with my daughter who wears boys clothes for sensory reasons. I don't think this is right, I don't think autistic girls who prefer boys clothes are boys. I don't think that being put on a pathway of social transition is appropriate. I know these things have happened under a Tory government but what are Labour going to do to protect these vulnerable children?

And schools, gender has no place there. Girls are refusing to drink and attend schools during their periods because toilets are becoming mixed sex. I'd have hated mixed sex toilets at school. These are horrific for girls.

How about equal pay? If males are counted as women in the stats the pay gap might not look so bad any more, late transitioning males are likely to be on higher salaries than women because they haven't had periods off for giving birth and maternity leave. This might skew the stats.

I know that you and others on here see this as a single issue, I just can't for some of the reasons I have posted on here.

So in a nutshell the detail cannot be gone into pre-election BUT that said these issues are more serious than 'just toilets' or 'trans issues'. They effect vulnerable women and children.

I forgot about him. Majority of less than 4,000, I don’t fancy the chances of Blackpool South being retained by the Tories.

@lifeturnsonadime I will have to come back to the majority of your post. With regards to Labour, there are other sources (I have posted one) that state a different stance. So don't believe everything you read. Unless a political party is going to make it a part of a manifesto, there is no telling what any of them will do with regards to the gender debate, and that includes the Tory party. Just my opinion.

I agree with all this. Where I disagree is 1) the need for the law to be changed and 2) that the Conservatives will do it and Labour won't.

I think most of the current problems could be solved if bodies started using legal exemptions from EA for women's spaces.

We've already seen lots of sporting bodies clarify that their sports are segregated by sex not gender and I expect that tp continue

This should be a social consensus issue not a political wedge issue

If that's the one from the other thread regarding biological women, that needs further definition to be believable. It also needs to address what they are going to do about the 'legal women' with the GRC.

I don't particularly need you to come back with detail on the other points because you won't change my mind, it's not good enough for women and girls to have to accept males, it's not good enough that we are treated autistic girls this way.

Too many things have been said which make me think that this is Starmer being a typical lawyer and not speaking plainly. He's trying to keep all sides happy but is pleasing none. Without addressing questions about issues such as the GRC, I don't trust that any spaces and sports will be reserved for biological women ONLY under a Labour Government.

Listening to women and answering a few direct questions about the definition of terms, will be what it would take for me. And given where we are now that REALLY shouldn't be too much to ask.

Oh, and also I strongly disagree with your characterisation that "The 'left' globally is pro giving males access to women's spaces internationally"
This isn't a left/right issue. Most of the access given to males in this country has happened under a Conservative government

@lifeturnsonadime I don't know about Labour. My response is that I haven't seen anything from the Tories that indicate they are more reliable or trustworthy. And again, there is also the balance of a whole host of social issues, which for me, collectively outweigh one issue.

Adam I don't think the Tories will do it either, I don't vote Tory.

Society is guided by governments (as well as lobby groups). The Equality Act and/ or the GRA could be tightened up.

I'm also not sure, and I think there is an issue here with case law whether single sex spaces includes trans women with a GRC who are legally women. Given that we can't ask for evidence of GRC this means any trans woman can be allowed. In any event businesses think that that they have to let TW in and are under significant pressure if they do not.

I think where I differ from most of you is that I think pre-election is the BEST time to put pressure on Labour to do the right thing by women on this issue.

Really? In this country bar the introduction of the GRC and the poor drafting of the EQuA (both happened under Labour) you are right, but in the states and canada and much of Europe it's happened under Left Wing administrations.

I think that's the crux of it, you see it as a single issue, I don't.

I don't think the Tories are reliable either, I just would very much like Starmer to give clarity on some issues, then I can vote Labour. I'm not the only woman who feels this way.

@lifeturnsonadime purely as a point of discussion, if campaigning to get political parties to include it in a pre-election manifesto does not work, what will the solution be, and who is the party most likely to deliver what you want? And if they don't, what then?

@lifeturnsonadime It may not be a single issue, but it does not dominate all other issues.

@Firefly2009 in the lead up to a general election politicians tend to answer questions on a range of issues posed by journalists or by the public via journalists. Some clarity on definitions to reassure that single sex means biological women only and not males with a GRC would go along way. Along with assurances that the Cass review will be followed.

In regards your second point, for me it is the main issue because of a number of reasons that are personal to me, but particularly what is happening to autistic girls. Everyone has different things that concern them most. This is mine.

Oh and Starmer would do well to reassure women that HE & the labour party doesn't consider us bigoted or 'rights hoarding dinosaurs' for raising legitimate concerns.

His silence about these things, along with the failure to acknowledge the poor treatment of Rosie Duffield , particularly the reason allegations, give me concerns.

@lifeturnsonadime what exactly is happening to autistic girls in relation to gender identity?

I don't see Starmer being silent on these things?

Which political party is doing better on Labour regarding this issue?

The middle ground gives Transfolk a third space. Not a woman's space.

Unfortunately the Tory Government's answer was to cede women's rights and women's spaces to men. Not exactly unsurprising given the misogynist and rape culture of the current Tory party.

Get the Tories out. They hate women and the ones who don't actively hate us, don't give a shit about us. A Tory vote is an anti-woman vote.