Voting to "Get the Tories Out" part 2

[AdamRyan]

Follow on to this thread to continue discussion

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4978642-voting-to-get-the-tories-out?page=40&reply=132044464

So you are content with waiting another year before anything happens?
Can't be that important then.

The extent of the damage to biological women has only become apparent in recent years and the Haldene judgement was last year, so they haven't had 13 years to overturn it in the sense that no one knew how this would pan out.

I agree they should do so now if possible, but whether there is time before a GE is questionable.

No, that's why I have been lobbying my MP and really hope that Kemi Badenoch does act in the way she has indicated.

It could be a good from the Tories while they still can, although less than 9 months is probably not long enough to get a new Act drafted and through the houses.

That article is 5 years old and is out of date, I've posted their current concerns in the light of Haldene upthread.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-labour-woman-anneliese-dodds-b2382675.html

Sir Keir was pressed to name his specific concerns about why safe spaces are needed: “I think it’s more that biological women who have been subjected to violence against women and girls want a safe space where they can feel safe.”

https://www.mumsnet.com/news/mumsnet-founder-justine-roberts-puts-users-questions-to-keir-starmer-and-bridget-phillipson

In answer to the question about the Cass review and child safeguarding, Starmer went on to state: “I feel very strongly that children shouldn’t be making these important decisions without the consent of their parents.” from here: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/keir-starmer-mumsnet-trans-rights-lgbt-abortion-b2216792.html but I listened to the interview and liked it

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/13/keir-starmer-gender-politics-labour

It took female MPs from both parties to change Starmer’s stance on gender politics - Private cross-party meetings for politicians worried about the erosion of sex-based rights encouraged the Labour leader to start speaking up at last

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/labour-welcomes-government-review-equality-act-over-defining-sex-biological

LABOUR said today it welcomes government plans to review the Equality Act, potentially defining sex explicitly as “biological sex.”
“Clarification is a good thing,” the party said, adding it would wait on specific proposals.

It's a quote of the Haldane ruling, not their opinion. I took it from there precisely because its neutral.

As a solicitor you know the law isn't blanket, she is careful to say she's interpreted against one specific scenario. You do yourself no favours by extrapolating outside what was said.

Ok thanks, welcoming plans to update the Act is not quite the same as committing to do it themselves. I'd like to know who from Labour said this, not that I don't trust the Morning Star but they're not the best source I would think. Also I note that 'it would wait on specific proposals' doesn't confirm too much about what they would be prepared to agree to?

On the first one a safe space is not the same as a single sex space. Just being pedantic. But that is not a commitment to single sex spaces at all.

Come on Labour give us clarity on this, if you are going to do it, say so and get off the fence!

In the absence of other guidance her ruling is likely to be followed as 'case law'. I know that much as a lawyer.

I also know that biological sex is not defined in the Act and query how you prevent a male with a passport giving his sex as female from entering single sex spaces for women in practice?

And on the second paragraph given that the GRA doesn't allow for anyone to ask for evidence of a GRC, this is why we now have de-facto self ID. It wasn't so long ago that Labour were going to introduce self ID, and that was there policy.

Perhaps they've seen they don't need to.

As you can see above Labour said they would support clarification in April. Si an amendment would have cross party support. In my opinion there are 2 reasons it hasn't happened:

1. the Conservatives are more interested in womens sex based rights as a culture war issue than in resolving it; updating legislation would remove their opportunity to use it as a wedge issue in the election;
2. Badenoch wants to rip up the EA rather than clarify it.

I think Labour will clarify it; I think the conservatives will continue to cast doubt on the Labour policy to put off voters like yourself.

Adam, why don't you want this clarified? It would help women immensely if it were?

Cross post. Why don't you think that Labour will say that they will clarify this categorically because other than the Morning Star article I'm not clear that they have said this, or who has said it?

This is such an easy win for Labour? Why don't they just commit properly to this?

Cronyism?

My doubt doesn't come from the Tory party casting doubt, it comes from the actions and inactions of the Labour Party.

It's in the Times and Telegraph but I'm not a subscriber.
Here have a selection:

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/04/05/labour-equality-act-ehrc-sex-trans/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/04/05/keir-starmer-backs-rishi-sunak-rewrite-equality-laws-women/

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-welcomes-uk-equality-act-review-mwxxhks8m

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-faces-internal-backlash-29642845.amp

I;m bowing out on this now.

I hope that the labour party gives me the assurance I need to vote and that when they succeed they will ensure women's single sex spaces.

Maybe I have raised some awareness. I hope so.

I was just about to say this is going nowhere.

I think you've definitely raised awareness of how futile it is to change someone's perspective when they don't trust politicians.

Just finally I do have access to the telegraph on a trial.

This is from that At the weekend, Sir Keir said trans rights could not override women’s rights, and added that if Labour wins the next election there will be no “rolling back” of women’s rights.

No rolling back of women's rights is not the same as ensuring single sex spaces or tightening the Equality Act.

Of course you do. Totally standard reading material for Labour voters.

Let's hope Kemi comes through for women! 🤔

I am really confused. If it's not to do with GRCs but absolute biology then where are trans men to go to the toilet? I don't think you think they should have to go to (biological ) men's toilets since biology trumps all in your argument. I know you will say third spaces but, assuming they aren't everywhere, where?

I know this is sometimes used as a gotcha but , in my case, it's a genuine puzzlement. If the person I know who was born biologically female entered a female toilet you would definitely perceive there was a man in the loo.

Sorry, I know you have bowed out life so I am wondering perhaps into the ether.

Ha ha ! No its not, you haven't even seen the Labour parties manifesto, no one has.
Only then can you fairly criticise Lab.

You re effectively campaigning for the Tories by saying Labour will be worse, you've said it repeatedly.

You even said that womens deaths aren't your priority, you have different ones.

Surely if there is time to create legislation on Rwanda and Post Offices there is time to do other legislation.

So which party will get a deal with the doctors?
Who is going to build HS2?
Any chance of Unbrexit? Brentrance?
Who is safest with the economy? Education?
Who will sort out potholes, collapsing schools, Scottish independence, get Northern Ireland's parliament working?
etc,

Not the party that caused all of these things.

Which women would it help? The ones living in destitution? The ones who can’t find an NHS dentist for their kids? The ones whose mental health is on the floor and can’t access treatment? It would make zero difference to me or any of the women I know. This is a middle class women’s obsession - or excuse to vote Tory.