Voting to "Get the Tories Out" part 2

[AdamRyan]

Follow on to this thread to continue discussion

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4978642-voting-to-get-the-tories-out?page=40&reply=132044464

Also, if its an easy fix, why haven't they Tories with their majority and "a woman is a woman" attitude fixed it?

I don't mean to be rude to you but how familiar are you with the Equality Act ?

The Haldene judgement makes it clear that for the purpose of single sex provisions legal woman are included. You appear to think this is limited to THAT single sex provision when it isn't.

I want whoever is in government to do the right thing by woman. I am merely pointing out that changes to legislation ARE required to ensure single sex spaces.

Because it is clearly not as easy to commit to as you make out. Otherwise the Tories would have done so already.

I am not going to tell you who to vote for or not to vote for, I just think as I said before that no party is going to give you the assurances you seek.

the only reason it is not easy to commit is because no one wants to upset the males who want to be in women's spaces.

All parties could easily do the right thing by women, including the Labour Party.

And by saying Labour will protect spaces for biological women (not just women) they are indicating very clearly to anyone who actually cares and isn’t making this point for other reasons, that they mean born women, not legal ones.

I think we have to agree to disagree on that

And I am sorry to hear your DS didn't get the decision he hoped for, hope he is ok.

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,scottish-government-defeats-legal-challenge-on-definition-of-woman

However, Lady Haldane today issued an opinion noting that the Scottish Government’s guidance, which was revised as a direct result of the earlier case and relates only to the law on public boards, is lawful.
“I conclude that in this context, which is the meaning of sex for the purposes of the 2010 Act, sex is not limited to biological or birth sex, but includes those in possession of a GRC [gender recognition certificate] obtained in accordance with the 2004 Act stating their acquired gender, and thus their sex,” she wrote.
“Such a conclusion does not offend against, or give rise to any conflict with, legislation where it is clear that sex means biological sex.”
Lady Haldane noted that the issue of transgender rights is “an often contentious social policy debate”, but that the court was not being asked to resolve that debate. The matter she was being asked to consider, she stressed, “is in the end of the day one of legal interpretation”.

Here's what fair play for women say:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights/

Anyway Labour have said they will clarify the law so I'm not really sure what your issue is? (Still....)

Given the speed with which Sunak thinks he can fix his daft Rwanda plan that he does not support, and the speed with which all of a sudden today (more than 10 years too late) he can create legislation to quash convictions, why is Sunak incapable of doing the same with equality legislation, if it is so important to him and the Tories?

@lifeturnsonadime The Labour Party has given you everything you want, I think. I’ve tried hard to understand and empathise, and you don't seem to be in the minority on how you feel about this on MN. This fixation on the Equality Act to make 1000% sure, with absolutely no room for discussion, that no ‘biological males’ can never ever under any circumstance whatsoever identify or be acknowledged as female in any way, shape, form, place, nook, or cranny on any paper/PC/phone/iPad/booklet/stamp/grain of sand so that they don’t all jump on/assault/punch/murder/creep on/offend you/look at/blink at you is starting sound insane. It’s like a single obsession that clouds every other thought.

I’m sorry for whatever has happened to you to make you this way, but this kind of sentiment towards other human beings is never normal (or right), irrespective of how anxious you might be, and if that’s the case, you are probably distressing yourself in increasing amounts with this preoccupation.

As I say, you’re not the dissenting voice on MN, and each to their own I suppose. I wish you good luck. I'm signing out of here.

It doesn't matter how clear Labour are or how terrible the Tories are, the Cons have their supporters and nothing will change their minds.

When someone puts single sex toilets in front of sub standard and dangerous maternity services (which have led to deaths) then you have to accept nothing will ever change their minds.

One might start to think that it has nothing to do with women's rights.

Well this is where I and other women, some of whom are extremely intelligent and knowledgeable on the laws surrounding this, are not satisfied.

When it turns out that biological women are not protected because the law does not protect us separately from Legal women (or other males because no proof can be required) don't say you haven't been warned.

Starmer, as a lawyer, knows this, he is aware of the implications of the Haldene issue and is fudging it. Rayner has stated biological women but biological women is not defined in the Act. AFAIK, despite you saying upthread that Starmer has stated he will strengthen laws, there is no direct evidence that HE has in fact done so.

AFAIK, despite you saying upthread that Starmer has stated he will strengthen laws, there is no direct evidence that HE has in fact done so

i would be very interested in seeing this if I have missed it, looking forward to the manifestos when a date is eventually decided on

Its got zero to with womens rights, its about trying to associate Labour as the anti women party and the Tories as pro women.

Accept there is 13 years of evidence on how awful the Tories have been to women, children, arguably all of us but is any of that acknowledged? nope not one thing can they bring themselves to criticise, even when in the case of DV and Maternity services, its led to the deaths of women and children.

Its all "...but Labour!"

It is the fact that i am a woman:

a) who thinks women are only biological women and we matter as much as men.
b) is a non practicing solicitor who understands that the Equality Act 2010 is insufficient, as drafted and in the light of the Haldene judgement, to protect biological women.
c) who feels it is unfair to women that our rights have been weakened, perhaps unintentionally by the wording of the Equality Act 2010 which was introduced by Labour along with the GRA which was also introduced by labour, without consent and feel that Labour when they get into power should commit to fixing the problems these pieces of legislation have caused to vulnerable women.
d) I will always believe that women's rights to single sex spaces are more important than the right of males with gender identities to be in our spaces. On this issue my sympathy lies predominantly with women who are displaced or worse women who have been harmed (and those numbers are steadily increasing - how many harmed women is enough for you to put women first? ) . I will stand with trans women to ensure they are safe in third spaces, if that is what they want but that is where my sympathy ends. Men are not women and no woman should be displaced or worse harmed as a result of a male being in a single sex space, no matter what his gender is or whether he holds a certificate.

It is possible to accept that the Tories have been terrible AT THE SAME TIME as wanting Labour to do better by women.

it's called critical thinking and lobbying for awareness in the hope that someone in the Labour Party will listen and put things right.

Labour can so easily fix this if they wish.

In which case so can the current government - even more easily in fact, given they’re in power. Why aren’t you haranguing them @lifeturnsonadime?

I am Blossomtoes. I lobby my Tory MP about this frequently.

But Labour is going to win the election, I want them to act when they do.

Where and when and who said this?

I have been told they have but see no evidence.

The SDP and Reform UK are committed. The Tories definitely aren't. Labour doesn't satisfy you, but if you keep writing to them, who knows?

Can't vote Reform and the SDP doesn't have a cat in hells chance of leading the country.

Yes hopefully continued lobbying and awareness will work! Fingers crossed.

I'm not sure how the Holyrood publication has come to that conclusion,

from Sex Matters, for balance

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/section-35-appeal-rejected/

Surely the must be something in the 13 years of government that the Tories are proud of and could campaign on?