Gordon Ramsay new baby

[Weridmouse]

Congratulations . Well done Tana.

Thank you for such a thoughtful reply. I would adopt if I could, purely because my preference would be to give a loving home to a child who already exists. It's not an option for me.

That said I am excited to go though pregnancy and childbirth (I was pregnant this time last week 😭) even though I'm very much aware of all the ways in which it can be less than joyful!

I still think that while one isn't better than the other, they are too different for direct comparison when you get into the nitty gritty.

You're right that it isn't for others to judge. If only more people agreed with you!

With regard to the former, I'm not sure there's any precedent for that in the UK? The biological mother (the one who has given birth) is always the legal mother

• *The break in a anonymity is quite new. I do think the use of altruistic donors is to some extent a safeguard, but would you want the test case to be your family ?

Where I live, and where I'm planning to have the treatment (different countries, though laws may change and my plans accordingly) women are paid a token amount of expenses fixed by law. There may be a financial incentive, but they are counselled extensively about the potential risks. I believe women are intelligent enough to make their own decisions. It also seems to me that many opposed to egg donation (on this site, as I said I've never met anyone elsewhere) overstate the risks, citing potential health consequences down the line where causation has never been proven.

While I'm not necessarily opposed to surrogacy, there is a reason that it is illegal in many countries where egg donation is not. The potential risks simply aren't comparable.

To be absolutely clear I think the use of donor eggs can be legitimate, however there are significant vulnerabilities and risks for everyone involved. I am concerned that desperate women are being sold a glossed-over version of what this route may really mean, both now and in the future. Buying babies is always morally tricky.

I haven't looked into the UK laws because they aren't relevant to me. It seems like an outlandish idea, but who knows? I don't think it would deter me. Seems unlikely that a judge would give parental responsibility to someone who had willingly donated their eggs.

This isn't theorectical
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/ovarian-hyperstimulation-syndrome-ohss/symptoms-causes/syc-20354697

And with "buying babies " I'm out. Offensive and untrue.

Not watertight but would you expose yourself to these risks for a stranger ?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10560672/#:~:text=Interpretation%3A%20Women%20who%20have%20been,is%20no%20greater%20than%20expected.

You said " no live birth no fee" how is that not buying a baby ?

@Neurodiversitydoctor have seen you on a lot of bio related threads and have been in agreement with much of what you’ve said and I do think the links you’ve put up are solid.

However, you can’t be going round saying people are “buying babies” if they have fertility treatment including used of donated gametes.

They are having medical treatment for something that the rest of us take for granted.

Yes there are multiple ethical dilemmas at play, and you could say the demand is leading to potential negative health outcomes and exploitation of women donating oocytes…. But I would put the fault at the door of the clinics and policy makers rather than the vulnerable people seeking treatment.

Have a little tact.

I'm recovering from a miscarriage and running out of mental energy for this debate. But as said baby won't exist unless fertilised with my husband's sperm, transferred into my uterus, implanted, nurtured by my body for (hopefully) 9 months and then given birth to by me, I'm not buying a baby. I'm going to be the one growing it.

To be clear I don't think anyone is buying a baby in the UK, but " no live birth, no fee?" how is that not selling the promise of a baby to someone ? Is that really ethical ?. Also it isn't in the womens' customers best interests to continue to have multiple medical procedures on this promise of a "live birth".

I do remain concerned about the paid for donors in foriegn clinics, is there a limit on how many times they can go through egg harvesting to provide young ova to someone who is determined to have a baby. Ultimately I think some of these clinics are exploiting everyone, by selling a dream.

@PP82 I’m so sorry you are having to deal with reading something like that after pregnancy loss.

How you’re feeling now is understandable and I would honestly just close down MN and go and put your energy into feeling better.

You are having to pay for a treatment, and half of the equation, to have a baby. I don’t think it is for you alone to take on the issues surrounding this particular mode of reproduction, to deny yourself the chance of a family because the surrounding legislation/protections may not be as robust as one might hope.

The technology exists and shouldn’t be ruled out, the issue is protections for the donor and offspring really and in that there are certain glaring failings.

But to attack someone in need of treatment/help to have a baby, they are equally a victim of the exploitative nature of the fertility industry. Bad taste to have a go.

Again @PP82 I’m so sorry things have been so difficult for you and wish you all the best going forward.

To a certain extent infertile people may be vulnerable but we aren't stupid. There are risks involved in donor conception, but if we choose to take on those risks that is up to us.

A few months ago I conceived naturally. This week I miscarried and had to have surgery. If I'd had donor egg IVF I'd have had a higher risk of pre eclampsia but a lower risk of miscarriage. I know which set of risks I prefer. I've discussed all the potential risks extensively with obstetricians and reproductive endocrinologists. They are manageable and don't faze me.

Donors have the risks explained to them and then make an informed decision about whether to proceed.

Some people are prepared to tolerate different risks than others. Doesn't mean they are stupid, naive or being exploited.

I am sorry about your miscarriage. I really hope it happens again for you and sticks this time. I hope you manage to take some time out this week to be kind to yourself and I do wish you luck no matter which path you take.💐

Yes, there are limits, both where I live and where I'm planning to have treatment. It is very tightly regulated.

And of course doctors will not proceed with transfer if there is a risk to the mother's health. That would be malpractice and result in striking off and costly litigation.

Ok, I really don't want to upset you at this sensitive time. I wish you all the luck in the world, FWIW my SIL has just had her first baby naturally at 44.

I would just say don't trust your doctors too implicitly if you are paying them.

Thank you @Neurodiversitydoctor and @Miamonthly . I don't usually argue on mumsnet, just use it to get different experiences and information on fertility issues. I've been arguing here since the miscarriage, as a distraction, and I don't think it's actually helping.

People will have their views but all that really matters is that my husband and I have options we are happy with going forward.

Thanks again for your kind words.

Didn’t say you were stupid or naive, there could be some level of exploitation in that the clinics will try and milk as much money out of you as possible.

I have been there, it is an intensely vulnerable time, I had multiple miscarriages, and I was hugely swayed to make decisions to fulfill the baby dream. Not all of these were in my best interest but you plough on.

I’m sorry but I really am not convinced, particularly outside of the U.K. that fertility clinics are closely regulated enough, things have progressed faster than the legislation required. There are a lot of sketchy ethics (to my mind)

Nevertheless, I hope things work out for you and you take care of yourself through this process. Please just close down MN and focus on you. There are always going to be people with a different point of view and putting yourself in the firing line as a human dartboard psychologically is not in your best interests. As much as you want to advocate for your position and chosen path, your health through this matters more. Take care.

What @Neurodiversitydoctor said is right

I would just say don't trust your doctors too implicitly if you are paying them.

Even if you aren’t paying them… I went through multiple surgeries and told would never conceive… at all!! And did so multiple times naturally, though stonking number of miscarriages, I’m not the desert they made me out to be.

Doctors are people too, and they do not know it all, have faith, it will come right and lots of TLC for you @PP82.

I highly recommend spa days, fertility acupuncture and loving yourself all you can. 💐

I highly recommend spa days, fertility acupuncture and loving yourself all you can

ThisI have a friend who had male factor. She did absolutely everything she could to maximise fertility (diet, exercise, caffiene etc) was told it was very likely to need IVF and even ISCI, 2 spontaneous pregnancies and 2 healthy children.

Logging off soon but I will say @Neurodiversitydoctor and @Miamonthly that while I'm obviously suspicious of any profit making enterprise, I've so far been impressed at how much my doctor has tried to dissuade me from pursuing options that might be, in their view, a waste of my money. Some of that might be because they need to keep their statistics up, so don't want people pursuing options that are unlikely to work. But generally, while I'm aware that the company that owns the clinic is primarily concerned with profit, I don't believe that my doctor is. That said I'd never take anything at face value, that's not in my nature and I'd always do my own research first.

On the issue of 'foreign,' I trust the laws of the country I live in, and that in which I plan to pursue donor treatment (to which I have connections) far more than I trust the laws in the UK. I think that both countries have their citizens and residents best interests at heart to a far greater extent, feel much more protected and secure in multiple ways, and the health service is far superior in both countries.

'Abroad' is not all sketchy and sinister.

The people assuming der mums must have assisted fertility need to understand female biology better! We know that fertility reduces into the 40s but many, many women will still have fertile cycles well into their 40s and beyond. Some women don't go through menopause until their mid to late 50s. Prior to reliable birth control it wasn't unusual to have older mothers. Even if only 1 in 100 women are fertile at 50 (I've made that number up), multiplied up to q population scale that is absolutely loads of fertile women who could quite naturally have babies! Whether that is desirable is surely for the couple to decide but I certainly wouldn't bin the contraception for very long time and certainly beyond my 40s! With my last child there was a 46 year old woman who had been caught out amd already had a child in their 20s.

Ok I have nothing to lose I think clinics in Spain and Cyprus are unethically profiterring from people, but specically women's hopes and dreams.