Armistice day irrelevance to Pro-Palestine

[bohomoon]

'It's not a time for political demos': War heroes demand pro-Palestine protest on Armistice Day is cancelled - as Met chief Mark Rowley comes under pressure to ban marches amid fears they could spark clashes over Remembrance weekend | Daily Mail Online
So, we buy and wear poppies to remember those who died having fought in WW1. Armistice day was the ceasefire between the allies and Germany on the 11th of November at the 11th hour 1918. We can only ‘remember,’ because we were not there and hence the ‘Remembrance day.’ Yes, I do poppies and I wear them, although I wear the white one that is brooch as a pacifist. And yet the call for a ceasefire is not being heard, in a land faraway, close to the birthplace of Jesus Christ, home to the Abrahamic faith people are being slaughtered, a genocide, horror is very much present today. The idea is so hypocritical, beyond belief. To remember the dead, and not see this relevance today just makes me feel sick, especially when this country is utterly responsible for the chaos in Palestine and Israel.

Why is it disingenuous to say that? Show me one large-scale political protest that hasn’t had some tag-a-long thugs - they’re few and far between, because these types use safety in numbers to try to get away with things.

To suggest that is the case for the majority of us, when many of us are there with our in-laws or our kids or our elderly neighbour is just ridiculous. In no way did any of what I say trivialise an old man being attacked. You’d have to have something seriously wrong to think that behaviour is any way acceptable or that it has a place in any society.

Of course the 30 children killed by Hamas is appalling, but when did you hear Rishi Sunak express his support for their murder? The only murders he has pledged support for are those of the Palestinian children.

RE: why everyone is mentioning children; 40% of the population of Gaza are children and babies. The Israeli govt is killing them in horrifying numbers.

More children and babies were killed in Gaza by Israel within the space of only 3 weeks than by Russia in Ukraine in an entire year.

More children and babies were killed in Gaza by Israel within 3 weeks than in any other armed conflict in the preceding years. There have since been 1,250 more child and baby deaths in Gaza since that became true. Israel are killing, on average, 1000 children and babies every week.

That’s without even mentioning the absolute torture being inflicted on the kids who are alive. No food. No water. No anaesthetic when they’re injured. Because Israel is letting in a tiny trickle of aid.

There was a doctor in Gaza from an international humanitarian group who came on the BBC news to say how common it is that they are using the acronym for “injured child, no surviving family.” Some of these children are too young to even know their own name.

Children writing their names on their arms so that when they are killed by Israel’s bombs, they can be identified by their family and given a proper burial, as mass graves are now becoming common place due to the insanely high death toll in Gaza in such a short amount of time.

I saw a photo of dead children with their names written on their little limbs in their child writing and that photo will stay with me forever.

So will the video of an ice cream truck filled with dead bodies because Israel keeping bombing hospitals and there is no morgue space.

I really don’t understand the last part of your post. Who is saying that about Hamas?

The cenotaph in Rochdale which is near to my town is tonight taped off and under police guard. It had the poppy wreaths taken off and replaced with Palestinian flags earlier in the week and today has had the wreaths removed again but has had graffiti written on it. The cenotaph is next to the main police station and across the road from the town hall.

I doubt this weekend will be peaceful at least locally and wouldn't be surprised if it was the same nationally.

What do you mean “who is saying that about Hamas? Saying what about Hamas, are you attempting to defend them? Only sick people would try to justify what they did.
Do you have any links for the figures you quote or are you one of the numerous AI bots that are filling this particular forum and using harrowing descriptions of terrible tragedies to try to win your arguments

That’s horrible, completely disrespectful. I think Palestine activists will lose a lot of support because of actions like this. I’ve been trying to keep out of this forum but sometimes you just can’t stay silent. It was the attack on the old poppy seller in Edinburgh that really got me, as well as all the attempts to minimise the Hamas attacks in Israel. Plus all the antsemitism on these threads.

This is so sad to see

Completely agree @AmadeustheAlpaca

So, we buy and wear poppies to remember those who died having fought in WW1.
Basic misunderstanding here, @bohomoon. It’s to remember all servicemen’s who have died in the line of duty, nit just those from WW1. We just use the date from the end of WW1. If you don’t know what it is, maybe don’t comment in what’s appropriate to happen on that day. I have a lot of sympathy for the protesters in this instance, but it wouldn’t hurt them to move the day/time. Wouldn’t affect their protest at all.

Erm, what? No, you said that “Hamas don’t give a shit about children” and that people are minimising their attack, and I said who is saying that about Hamas? As in who is minimising their attack or pretending that they care about kids? I was confused as to why you ended your post like that, as I haven’t seen anyone say that, but you were writing as if it was a commonly held opinion.

You can easily fact check my post by just googling the different parts, but if you’d like me to do the leg work, which part(s) are you querying?

AI? Well I wish I was bloody AI but unfortunately these posts are written by someone real.

Here is some reading:

Save the Children article on the number of children killed in 3 weeks exceeding annual total deaths:
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/gaza-3195-children-killed-three-weeks-surpasses-annual-number-children-killed-conflict-zones#:~:text=occupied%20Palestinian%20territory-,GAZA%3A%203%2C195%20children%20killed%20in%20three%20weeks%20surpasses%20annual%20number,they%20have%20no%20part%20in

British Medical Journal on child death toll at over 4000 in less than a month, WHO calling for ceasefire:
https://www.bmj.com/content/383/bmj.p2605

Children with their names written on them (which made me cry all over again, so thanks for that):
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/23/middleeast/gaza-hospitals-doctors-disaster-intl-hnk/index.html

Ice cream vans full of dead bodies (no photos or videos of it in this article as I don’t want to scar anyone):
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-death-toll-rises-bodies-are-stored-ice-cream-trucks-2023-10-15/#:~:text=GAZA%2C%20Oct%2015%20(Reuters),cemeteries%20are%20short%20of%20space.

UN report says Israel treatment of Palestinians is apartheid:
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights

Israel hooding and torturing Palestinian child prisoners:
https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-on-palestinian-children--

I think we will never really know who is in the minority or the majority unless we did some kind of vote. My point about the government wasn’t that they should get involved. I hope there can be peace in Gaza and Israel. I don’t want to be pulled into a war. I don’t believe the UK is a super power at all, far from it at the moment. Within the UK I think the government could do more to reduce the tensions between all the different sides and opinions, for example between protestors and those who don’t believe the protests are good. We all have different opinions and that should be OK. The violence or anti-semitism at marches should not be tolerated, and it also shouldn’t be sensationalised by the government to create further divisions and hate and I feel that is what they do. I do feel that this government creates divides among people in the country and pits people against each other rather than try to unite us or create tolerance in society. I think the protests are an attempt to stand against what the Israeli government are doing, unfortunately they are committing war crimes.

@OneHurtSpaggettio I’m afraid that there are lots of posters on this particular forum attempting to minimise what Hamas did. If they cared about children they wouldn’t set them on fire or behead them. If they hadn’t done that lots of Palestinian children would still be alive.
We are never going to agree but thank you for sending me the links, it must have taken you some time. I do have to say that perhaps if children didn’t chuck stones and missiles at soldiers they probably wouldn’t get arrested. Though there’s no excuse for abusing prisoners.

That's disgraceful.

@AmadeustheAlpaca

I do have to say that perhaps if children didn’t chuck stones and missiles at soldiers they probably wouldn’t get arrested.

I see that Save the Children Fund paper states "All child participants were between the ages of 12 and 17 years old when they were detained"

I agree there's absolutely no excuse for abusing prisoners, but there's no excuse for this either:

https://twitter.com/yaelbt/status/1721861325033292229?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1721861325033292229%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

Thanks for your response. It’s important to say that beheaded children was never reported by any offficial source, and those which did withdrew the statement/said no evidence was shown. I got told off earlier for posting an Al Jazeera article about it (which I think is not right as all mainstream news is biased) so here is a CNN one, as they’re broadly pro-Israel:
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html

I don’t doubt that innocents suffered horrors on that day. However, this idea that the colossal amount of civilian deaths in Gaza is ion any way justified and all Hamas’ fault and nothing to do with the Israeli govt and IDF handling of the response really does defy belief.

Those kids that threw a stone probably had their mother raped/sister killed/house taken/house destroyed by the IDF. Being subjected to pain and brutality by the IDF as a Palestinian is commonplace. Look at the way they have treated even peaceful Jewish protesters, and they’re now pushing to be able to use live ammunition on Israeli protestors. These things don’t happen in a vacuum. Locking up a child without a fair trial is also inexcusable.

From Save the Children:

”An Israeli boy throws a stone from a settlement at a Palestinian child. In the unlikely event that he is arrested, he will be bailed. If he is questioned, it will be with full safeguards.

If he is prosecuted, it will be before a juvenile court, with his parents and a lawyer present. If convicted, he will be dealt with in the community under the supervision of a professional probation service. Juvenile justice in Israel ticks all the boxes.

The Palestinian boy throws the stone back. In the small hours of the morning soldiers of the Israel Defence Force burst into his home, terrify the family, seize the child and transport him, hooded or blindfolded and face down on the floor of a military vehicle, his hands bound.

There, in military custody, with no access to parents or a lawyer, he may be kept in isolation for days; he will be shouted at, threatened and possibly struck by an interrogator who wants the names of other children.

He will be required to sign a confession, often in a language he doesn’t understand. If he eventually sees a lawyer, he will be advised that there is no point in pleading not guilty because practically everyone before the military juvenile courts is convicted.

It may be months, even years, before he sees his family again, and when he does he may well be permanently damaged.”

I think a lot of commentators need to find out why and how Britain was involved in Palestine after the war. And why Jews wanted to live there. Glibly saying 'Free Palestine' means different things to different people. To some it means get the Jews out. The suffering of Jews down the centuries has been horrific. As has the suffering of the Palestinians in the last decades. Calling for a ceasefire in this current war whilst admirable shows a lack of understanding of the current Israeli government. Anti-war marches should not be stopped because of Free Speech but when they bring fear to a minority and potential antisemitic actions they should be carefully considered. At any time of the year.

So you think there’s no excuse for killing an IDF soldier but I’m sure you’ll find all the excuses for collective punishment of an entire population from babies through to the sick and elderly and pregnant women and killing 4,000+ children and babies in horrific ways within only 4 weeks.

Please try to learn more about this war and our country’s current and previous role in it.

it isn’t our war but we help provide military and other support for it and hence the mass death of innocent children there is something we should think and care about, even just as compassionate human beings

This, exactly this.

There are so many parent's at the marches, so many older people, young people, so much diversity including Jewish people, Muslim people. The news just wants to paint this divisive picture when the reality is the only thing that unites all these people is the desire to stop the death of innocents, especially innocent children who have really nothing to do with it and no one to speak for them.

It is one day. One day to remember our war dead. I don't think one day is too much to ask.
And anyone saying that makes me & others unconcerned about the middle east, anti-semitic, islamophobic is utterly wrong.

You have just proven my point about minimising what Hamas did. Is it OK in your eyes that babies were murdered, but hey it’s fine! They weren’t beheaded.
Dont give me all this whataboutery nonsense that a boy throws a stone at soldiers probably because his mother was raped etc etc. You’ve just making that up. You’ve also made up all the heart rending stories. Terrible things are happening in Israel and Gaza but in these examples you are talking invented nonsense.
You are going round in circles like all the other almost identical posts on this forum.
I usually sit on the fence regarding the Middle East situation but I am coming round to the opinion that we need to maintain a liberal democracy such as Israel in the Middle East where women and LGB people can have a decent life without being 10th rate citizens. So many Islamic countries, funded by Russia and others hate the western world and our values and we need a supportive presence in the Middle East to stop being overwhelmed.
I’m going to bed now. Night night everyone, including the AI bots

What? How can it ever be okay that babies are murdered? I can’t even imagine what the Israelis suffered on 7/10. Making up lies about it to try and sensationalise something already horrific is also messed up, but I don’t think I worded that part in the best way. I am very ill with Covid right now and so is my baby so you’ll have to forgive my clumsiness, I’m sorry I made you feel like that, I would never, ever want to minimise something so incomprehensibly sad and awful.

I did not make up the other stories. I have read plenty about Palestinians in the past 15+ years and have British Palestinian friends, as well as knowing people who have worked there. I am also very close to a Jewish family who had family members stay in an Israeli kibbutz.

I’m also going to bed now. Good night (still not a bot)

I can have empathy for all the people losing their lives in this war, but still disagree that the on street protests will achieve anything. I’ll repeat - we have no power to halt the war.

I don’t doubt that innocents suffered horrors on that day. However, this idea that the colossal amount of civilian deaths in Gaza is ion any way justified and all Hamas’ fault and nothing to do with the Israeli govt and IDF handling of the response really does defy belief

But it is Hamas’s fault. Had they not committed the heinous crimes on 7th October, then there would be no war, and no deaths on either side. Who else would you blame for the current situation? How else should the Israeli government have responded? Do you think Hamas would have stopped there if Israel hadn’t retaliated?

Of course it was a provocation by Hamas, and intended as such. How could you look at it otherwise? It's this faux naivete that gets you. Like the Westerners who chant "from the river to the sea" and claim it's a call for peace.

October 7th wasn't the start - it was a continuation of a dispute that has been running for decades - it was not completely unexpected or completely unprovoked.

Hamas should never have killed those civilians. It was horrific.

But You do not retaliate by killing tens of thousands of civilians - are we at ten Palestinian lives for each Jewish one already ?