Armistice day irrelevance to Pro-Palestine

[bohomoon]

'It's not a time for political demos': War heroes demand pro-Palestine protest on Armistice Day is cancelled - as Met chief Mark Rowley comes under pressure to ban marches amid fears they could spark clashes over Remembrance weekend | Daily Mail Online
So, we buy and wear poppies to remember those who died having fought in WW1. Armistice day was the ceasefire between the allies and Germany on the 11th of November at the 11th hour 1918. We can only ‘remember,’ because we were not there and hence the ‘Remembrance day.’ Yes, I do poppies and I wear them, although I wear the white one that is brooch as a pacifist. And yet the call for a ceasefire is not being heard, in a land faraway, close to the birthplace of Jesus Christ, home to the Abrahamic faith people are being slaughtered, a genocide, horror is very much present today. The idea is so hypocritical, beyond belief. To remember the dead, and not see this relevance today just makes me feel sick, especially when this country is utterly responsible for the chaos in Palestine and Israel.

Hmm. So if people marched through London shouting chants of “work makes you free” or “the final solution” you’d just think ‘oh, that sounds like a song lyric’?

Words, slogans, chants - they have history, context and meaning.

The meaning of the ‘pro-Palestinian’ chant (actually antisemitic chant) is well understood by those who bellow it and those who fear hearing it.

The UK doesn't support Hamas. Our Prime Minister flew to Israel to lend his support to their attacks.

Words, slogans, chants - they have history, context and meaning.

Really ?

My experience of the past few decades has been the exact opposite. All nuance, context and meaning is stripped from words in order to weaponize them.

Some people will interpret 'From the river to the sea' as a call to exterminate all Jews and wipe out Israel. Others as a call for a peaceful Palestine free of Israeli aggression.

Of those shouting the slogan, some will mean the first and others the second.

In a pro Palestine march, some will be doing so as a call for peace and a ceasefire and others will be doing it to encourage Hamas to extract greater retribution.

There is no black and white here. There are a lot of different meanings attributable to the same words and the same actions.

One thing that is really interesting to me is the prominent people, newspapers, politicians and celebrities who align themselves with the pro-Israeli govt stance and against the marchers, it is very telling in general with regards to this situation.

It tells you quite a lot that Nigel Farage, Suella Braverman, Marine Le Pen, Bojo, the Daily Mail, the Sun etc are all very pro-Israel and against pro-Palestine protests.

When you look at those figures and consider historically the viewpoints and political campaigns they have represented and supported, it is very telling.

You left out Jews, Kier Starmer, and most of the Labour front bench, just for instance. Very telling.

I have admitted no such thing @hamstersarse and deny your accusation that I am. your false accusation and personal attack has been reported.

Not a great post from them in terms of understanding

One of the groups planning a protest for Armistice Day is the same group which two years ago drove in convoy from Bradford to London and used loudspeakers to shout threatening anti-Semitic abuse from their windows. They drove through areas known to have Jewish communities, shouting 'Fuck their mothers! Rape their daughters!' Does that sound pro-Palestinian but anti-Hamas to you? People died in the Second World War to defeat that kind of genocidal, totalitarian ideology. Let's not pretend that these agitators aren't anti-us as well as anti-Israel. Armistice Day and Remembrance Sunday are not about peace, they are about remembering the cost of peace.

But, of course, the opposite of war isn't necessarily peace, and a one-sided ceasefire isn't a ceasefire, it's suicide. War is a horrendous thing but there are worse things, such as living under the constant and genuine threat that people from your neighbouring territory will visit medieval-style mass atrocities on your civilians. If the cost of a ceasefire is never being able to sit down for breakfast with your children without knowing if you are minutes away from gleeful men bursting in and torturing them to death in front of you or tying them to you and burning you all alive (as happened on October 7th) then the cost is too much.

The protest for a ceasefire in Gaza is appropriate for Saturday the 11th as that is Armstice Day- the day the shelling stopped, & the guns went silent.

I think people are worried that Saturday’s protest will spill over into Rembrance Sunday, which is the following day and the day we mourn our war dead.

I think the only thing appropriate to Remembrance Sunday would be vigils to all who have died in the conflict- Israeli, Palestinian, Lebanese and the dozens of other nationalities who have also been killed.

Is it a personal attack to call you left wing.

Jesus Christ

I haven't seen Keir Starmer give a statement about the armistice day protest. Do you have one to link to?

With regard to Marine Le Pen being "pro-Israel" it's an interesting story..she has certainly had a change of POV recently.

As for her being " against pro-Palestine protests.", well yes, but so are quite a few French politicians, right across the spectrum....it's a domestic politics/law and order issue.

It's more the "You are clearly left wing, who have admitted to being anti-Semitic"

It's the "who have admitted to being antisemitic" blatant lie and smear I object to, as well as the implication that I am.

Fucking hell.

I’m worried about the rise of the far right, because frankly over the last few weeks I’ve felt alienated by the left and pushed more right of centre myself. I’ve actually had to make an effort to bring myself back to the centre ground.

Men like that will tip people over the edge.

Hamas routinely fires rockets into Israel, year in year out. Quite a few of them land, although not as many as misfire and land in Gaza. Hamas are not going to stop firing rockets or fighting the IDF or attacking Israeli civilians in the event of an Israeli ceasefire. Are any of these marches calling on Hamas for a ceasefire? I'm not sure the people who get vindictive over posters of kidnapped toddlers are the peaceniks they are pretending to be. They wouldn't be protesting this war if the Israelis were losing.

Lies. I take an anti-IDF stance, not an anti-Jewish stance and have reported comments that are anti-semitic within the last 24 hours.
These comments were removed by MNHQ for being anti-semitic.

Conflating IDF and Israeli govt with Jewish people is a nasty and lazy smear. But it's an easy one to make isn't it! Especially ironic when many posters accuse even Jewish people who support peace of anti-semitism.

“From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free” was originally written to mean freedom from oppression, occupation and equal rights for Palestinians. It doesn’t dictate whether this is under a nation called Israel or Palestine.

However, armed terrorist groups have co-opted this chant to mean replacing Israel with Palestine insofar as a nation state. So an overthrow of the government. There’s different interpretations as to whether overthrow would have would not include genocide of we Jews, but in any revolution, the ruling class is right to fear retribution.

I don’t fear the chant myself as a Jewish woman coming from a peace protest in London. Similar to how when watching a Gaza vigil that the Muslim community held, I heard the Iman speak and saying “Allah Akbar” many times and the congregation saying “Allah Akbar” as well. I didnt get all fearful of that even though ‘Allah Akbar” was co-opted by terrorists into a war cry they ask almost always do while attacking and killing civilians.

As with any chant, who is saying it, when, where and in what context matters.

In a protest calling for a cease-fire, for peace, the chant is received by me as having its original meaning. Not just because it’s not masked terrorists shouting it with AK-47s from the back of pick up trucks, but because it is said on a rota with cease fire now, and stop genocide, etc.

Gymnopedie - 16:54 nice try with the pacifist version of the rallying cry used by Palestinian militiants. Shame that your thoughts and argument have to collide with cold hard reality. Since it isn't possible to divine what meaning people attach to the phrase, perhaps best to BAN it???

Unsubstantiated personal attack

IDF also routinely bombs Gaza every year too. The past few years have had skirmish level exchange of rockets and bombs.

As far as no one calling for Hamas to cease fire, I think it’s because Hamas has offered a cease fire several times now? As to whether they’d actually uphold it is another matter, but right now the only ones refusing the cease fire are the Americans and Israel. So, whether Hamas is bluffing with the offer of a cease fire or not, we can’t find out unless Israel tries?

Thank you @MorrisZapp . I see it has been rightly deleted.

Hamas officials have actually said they are going to keep on repeating October 7th-style attacks until Israel is defeated, so I wouldn't say they are offering a ceasefire.