Armistice day irrelevance to Pro-Palestine

[bohomoon]

'It's not a time for political demos': War heroes demand pro-Palestine protest on Armistice Day is cancelled - as Met chief Mark Rowley comes under pressure to ban marches amid fears they could spark clashes over Remembrance weekend | Daily Mail Online
So, we buy and wear poppies to remember those who died having fought in WW1. Armistice day was the ceasefire between the allies and Germany on the 11th of November at the 11th hour 1918. We can only ‘remember,’ because we were not there and hence the ‘Remembrance day.’ Yes, I do poppies and I wear them, although I wear the white one that is brooch as a pacifist. And yet the call for a ceasefire is not being heard, in a land faraway, close to the birthplace of Jesus Christ, home to the Abrahamic faith people are being slaughtered, a genocide, horror is very much present today. The idea is so hypocritical, beyond belief. To remember the dead, and not see this relevance today just makes me feel sick, especially when this country is utterly responsible for the chaos in Palestine and Israel.

Well said @meditrina

I suppose there are many dimensions to this- a peace protest is not incompatible with Armstice day, but an antisemitic protest or a protest is obviously incompatible and unacceptable. I hope the protests really are the former and not the latter. Of course the fear that many Jews are experiencing have strong parallels with the attempts to eradicate Jews by the Nazis, and Hamas shares the same objective. That can’t be ignored in all of this either. It’s complicated and while I support the right to protest peacefully I am concerned that the marches will become something else.

The US congress noted:

"it is fitting that the recurring anniversary of this date should be commemorated with thanksgiving and prayer and exercises designed to perpetuate peace through good will and mutual understanding between nations"

Peace - it is about peace! A peace demonstration is wholly appropriate on Armistice day.

The original Festival of Remembrance was a solemn and religious service dedicated to the fallen of WW1, to peace and an end to senseless killing . It came about because there was substantial civil unrest and public anger in the aftermath of WW1.
We have extended this to include WW2 and have managed this up to now because that conflict is widely accepted as a morally justified war.

Since then, not so much. Are there any justifications for war since 1945? Where there has been outright invasion of one country eg Ukraine and Kuwait, it's a bit clearer, but should we be involved on the ground?
The UK has been involved in a few murky conflicts. Should we remember them equally with conscripts of the world wars?
It seems to have become in memory of veterans generally.
As the memory of these wars fade or become a myth we are in real danger of remembrance being seen as an establishment ritual that's completely unrelated to reality.
Especially when those attending are actively supporting the bombing of hospitals, schools and refugee camps.

IMO, nobody has the right to dictate what remembrance day should be about or how it is spent. I shall not be told when I can and cannot call for peace.

@ismu

*we are in real danger of remembrance being seen as an establishment ritual that's completely unrelated to reality.

Especially when those attending are actively supporting the bombing of hospitals, schools and refugee camps.*

I really really hope you don't mean all those attending all the commemorative events.

Care to either further or delete/edit your post?

You imply that hundreds of thousands of people attending pro-Palestine demonstrations ( I am one of them, by the way) are there for other reasons than because of the evil that is being done in Gaza. You based this on 2 deplorable incidents. You then demand the end of these demonstrations due to the potential civil unrest which they would cause if allowed. Are you for real? A troll? An Israeli bot or just plain deluded?

I'm not suggesting that @notimagain but our leaders at the cenotaph will be, it's official policy and as such it's what all service personnel are bound to fight for no matter their views.

I know many many people will have personal remembrances to make. My grandad was of Jewish descent, an RAF navigator who survived many bombing missions.
In later life he was also the most bigoted racist you could ever meet!!!

I think we need to move on from remembering the World Wars and decide what Remembrance Sunday actually means.

We are in a dangerous place, and conflating peace marches with antisemitism just adds fuel to the flames.

Well you go ahead and call for peace as loudly as you can while others are trying to silently reflect on their loss. don’t worry about any disrespect, disruption or upset caused . Just do whatever you want . That’s the way to achieve peace alright .

Anyone and everyone who has witnessed any conflict (military or civilian) should never shy away from demonstrating against war, wherever it may be. And while we cannot speak for the dead, I am certain that those who lost their lives to the horrors of war would want to stop the same thing ever happening to someone else.
Anyone living through war will tell you, if you survive or witness a missile attack, your life doesn't stop - it isn't put on hold. If you make it out alive and uninjured, you have no choice to get on with your daily routine, be that school or work or whatever that routine may be. You won't get access to psychological support, you will be expected to get on with it.
War stops for no one - and its incredibly important - especially in memory of anyone who has lost their life to war - that people get on their feet and demand a stop to war full.stop.

I think we need to move on from remembering the World Wars and decide what Remembrance Sunday actually means.

For many of us Remembrance Sunday hasn't really been about the two world wars for quite some time, it's still very relevant at a personal level for many.

FWIW I attended local events in order remember two very close friends killed in the aftermath of a conflict caused by foreign agression, and also in memory of a colleague killed in the first Gulf War.

I think the best we can hope for this weekend is there's no major unpleasantness due to any intersection of the major events.

Ah yes, the "right wing" which has turned into the default monicker for anyone with an opinion a millimetre to the right of (Ooh) Jeremy Corbyn and his disciples. Such people previously known as "normal".

This is the Met Police's trump card. So that when they inevitably enforce a ban at the weekend they can say it's for everyone's safety in case of the "right wing". But don't worry guys, next week's anti-Jew march is good to go!

As a PP pointed out, why no mass demos every week against Russia's war on Ukraine?

@notimagain I'm absolutely NOT going to edit that post, if you read it again you'll see that I'm worried that especially younger people will become alienated from remembrance as it looks to them more and more like an empty establishment ritual where no one is allowed to voice any dissent. It shouldn't be about politics, but peace. The marches should absolutely go ahead.

But it is being held on armistice day and not remembrance day?

VivienneDelacroix · Today 01:16

Armistice Day is to remember the horrors of war and remind ourselves "never again". It's a very apt day to highlight the plight of Palestinians, anyone who thinks it isn't is creating a hierarchy of worthy lives”

This. Hypocritical of our politicians to attend, lay wreaths at the Senotaph whilst refusing to call for a ceasefire.

"For many of us Remembrance Sunday hasn't really been about the two world wars for quite some time, it's still very relevant at a personal level for many.

FWIW I attended local events in order remember two very close friends killed in the aftermath of a conflict caused by foreign agression, and also in memory of a colleague killed in the first Gulf War"

This is part of the problem, with absolutely every respect.

Service personnel and families are solemnly remembering personal loss on this day. But the event is increasingly promoted by politicians and media as commemorating all British soldiers everywhere who "fought for our freedom" which is not the original intention of a silence on armistice day or the poppy.
It's a day for peace.
Marching for peace is perfectly appropriate.

No - what has raised a reaction is the huge number of innocent dead in such a short period of time coupled with our Government's failure to condemn it. Of course sadly there is an antisemitic element in some of the protests and the police need to come down on this hard, but it is insulting to suggest that we cannot be against the current atrocities against civilians (while also acknowledging the atrocities of Hamas) without being inherently antisemitic.

I think it would make a big difference if the protesters held peaceful banners and slogans. But they have been hijacked by political activists. For example, ‘Free Palestine’ signs are not really a call for peace but a political message against Israel, and then of course there are different views about what that means and the security implications for Israel. But signs asking for peace, restraint, reconciliation that would be very different and I would support this. Unfortunately I don’t think that will happen as there tend to be groups of extremists, possibly a loud minority, that attend marches with different intentions.

In the case of the current conflict in Gaza because it’s a geopolitically sensitive area with potentially much wider ramifications. It would be strange not to report on it. But also the scale of the terror attack on Oct 7th started the coverage and the scale of the response to that has been somewhat unusual from what was considered a modern democracy. I don’t think anybody would rather it wasn’t reported on.

My husband is often annoyed about people picking specifically on Israel and not other countries for their human rights abuses, and I see that. But I do think in this case the difference is Israel is supposed to be an ally of this country. Our government is lending their support for them to do this and is condoning it. So perhaps there is good reason to protest it more heavily than other conflicts.

@TheThingIsYeah - when I say right wing thugs I mean right wing thugs, Tommy Robinson types, i mean the kind of people who go looking to intimidate and possibly attack 'lefties, poofs and darkies', under the cover of 'Never forget the war' (not noticing the irony that it was fought against people like them) not 'people who are not as left wing as me'. I don't subscribe to the view that anyone not as LW as me is a fascist and one of the things I dislike in the left is the tendency to sometimes do this. My parents are both Tories who have been active in local politics and are also good people I love and respect, so I don't tar everyone with the same brush.

Thank God I'm old enough to remember watching World At War. It had a lot of footage of victims of the Holocaust. Something a lot of people on here would like to dismiss. Of course decent people want there to be peace in Gaza but intimidating elderly poppy sellers in London is not the way to achieve it.

It's been a day of quiet reflection for decades. And still, same old shit, endless death and destruction.
You spend the day as you see fit, as will I.

These 'peaceful' protests seem anything but peaceful to me.

Anti-Semitic chants, breaches of the peace...........they just seem very sinister to me.

It's easy for these political movements to get traction around a 'simple message' that no-one can argue with without looking like a psychopath such as 'ceasefire now' (think also Black Lives Matter) because most people do not look beyond the slogan. HOwever, I am deeply uncomfortable with them happening without any control at all - let's face it, there are at least a minority of people calling for genocide ("from the river to the sea") - and to do it on armistice day smacks to me of not being peaceful, being deliberately antagonistic, and totally disrespectful.

Calling for Free Palestine is not inherently anti -semitism @WarmWinterSun.
A free Palestine would mean somewhere where people could move in and out of the country with a passport like normal countries. Or where another country didn't control essential services. Or where settlers couldn't illegally force you out of your home and burn your livelihood to the ground.
Or where children's right to safety as innocent civilians on both sides could be respected.
All these things are part of peace in the Middle East.