Armistice day irrelevance to Pro-Palestine

[bohomoon]

'It's not a time for political demos': War heroes demand pro-Palestine protest on Armistice Day is cancelled - as Met chief Mark Rowley comes under pressure to ban marches amid fears they could spark clashes over Remembrance weekend | Daily Mail Online
So, we buy and wear poppies to remember those who died having fought in WW1. Armistice day was the ceasefire between the allies and Germany on the 11th of November at the 11th hour 1918. We can only ‘remember,’ because we were not there and hence the ‘Remembrance day.’ Yes, I do poppies and I wear them, although I wear the white one that is brooch as a pacifist. And yet the call for a ceasefire is not being heard, in a land faraway, close to the birthplace of Jesus Christ, home to the Abrahamic faith people are being slaughtered, a genocide, horror is very much present today. The idea is so hypocritical, beyond belief. To remember the dead, and not see this relevance today just makes me feel sick, especially when this country is utterly responsible for the chaos in Palestine and Israel.

FIL also was a British Army teenaged soldier in WW2 in Palestine - He said the Arabs were decent to them.
The Israelis not so as your relative discovered.
It’s still chaotic.
So many lives lost.

Interesting stories. As a civilian I have never being attacked or felt threatened by Israelis or Jews in any way at all.

Me too. And everybody knows exactly what that chants mean.. We've heard it before.

I'm just wondering why that matters to you so much @bonkersAlice . I don't agree that that chant calls for the destruction of Israel, but for Palestinians to be free. That's not a contradiction, both can happen. It's not antisemitism and it doesn't support Hamas.
If people using that chant are being accused of hate then where do we stop? Are Welsh and Scottish nationalists and those calling for Irish reunification inciting hate and violence?
There is a presumed right to freedom of speech and protest in the UK but it is fragile. We need to allow people the freedom to say things even if we disagree or find them uncomfortable.
Plenty of Jewish pacifists and anti Zionists have used that chant.
We need to call out actual antisemitism targeting people because they are Jewish.
Protest against the war and the carpet bombing of Palestinian children, calling for a ceasefire and the release of hostages- these things are not antisemitism or disrespectful to remembrance.

I will say this with a genuine effort not to be confrontational, but none of your post is true or relevant (other than the obvious good of stamping out antisemitism and other racism).

In the circumstances of protests against Israel the chant means ‘destroy Israel’.

Scots and Irish nationalism doesn’t purport to want the destruction of England.

And the freedoms of speech and assembly do not include hate speech.

There have been a number of marches and they seem to be increasingly aggressive in mood. I am avoiding going into London. Pictures on the news don’t look particularly peaceful . Comments on here are often inflammatory. I understand why Jews feel threatened.

@WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps

I agree. Also it is known that the chant evokes fear in Jewish communities so therefore why keep chanting it? There are many phrases that are no longer considered acceptable in public use because of their harmful connotations or potential harm, why is that particular chant any exception? Is it because the feelings of Jews don’t count? Why not just chant for peace and reconciliation and drop the loaded inflammatory slogans?

@ismu

What is difficult in your posts is the absolute refusal to accept that at least some people use that chant in exactly the way I have described (to wipe out Israel)

Is it that you genuinely believe that no-one uses it in that way?

Can you give an example of an innocent sounding phrase that we now consider unacceptable because it makes some people feel afraid?

It’s not a phrase but one example that springs to mind would be images on the Prophet Mohammed. I think most people would not show this because of the offence and upset caused to Muslims, even if the context was purely educational or for artistic purposes. There are also racial phrases that I will not repeat that were once common but now completely unacceptable because of racist connotations- Prince harry used one of them to refer to an army colleague.

I'm guessing you reported my post and had it removed so I will remove the sentence against MNHQ after checking the guidelines.

I find that it is you that are 'blind' and following the narrative of the media and likes of Suella Braverman.

These marches are protesting against the murdering and genocide of thousands of innocent Gazan civilians. Over 10 thousand murdered by the Israel state, over 4 thousand that are children. The protests are for Palestine and not Hamas, and are peace not anti-Semitism. So please expand your sources of information beyond the UK media, Braverman, Biden and Sunak.

”From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” isn’t innocent sounding.

Depends on your interpretation of that line. There are different interpretations, I guess each side will insist theirs is “the right one”. Bottom line is individuals are allowed to have their opinions on this.

@MissyB1 surely if one possible interpretation is that an entire race should be wiped out then it is better not to use the phrase? And it’s pretty entitled to insist that a group of people should just shrug that off

It is to me, it sounds like a line from a song. It contains no offensive words. Obviously it has a particular meaning in a political context but to (I'm guessing) most people in the UK it does not sound like a violent phrase.

I'd never heard it until a fortnight ago.

I’m not really into policing speech to that extent, especially if the people saying the “controversial” line absolutely do not mean what the offended party say they mean. We have to be careful not to insist that people are deliberately using hate speech if they aren’t. I probably wouldn’t use that phrase but I wouldn’t ban anyone else from using it.

I agree with this in theory, but where does it stop? I've also heard that it's antisemitic to say "Free Palestine".
Personally I avoid both, but they are, at face value entirely innocent phrases. If we start policing language and blocking protest based on what people may feel based on one possible interpretation, it's a very slippery slope.
Language should usually be taken at face value IMO.

The reluctance over anything to do with Muhammad is also due to the often hysterical and violent reaction of a group of intolerant people. By that I do not mean all Muslims at all, but a small section.

That's not how free speech works. Lots of people think 'adult human female' is a harmful, violent phrase. Everybody has the right of reply and of counter protest, but you don't have the right to insist that your own interpretation of a phrase should make it unsayable.

@Oliotya

If we start policing language and blocking protest based on what people may feel based on one possible interpretation, it's a very slippery slope.

It may have already started.....

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/03/tory-mp-bob-stewart-racial-hostility-activist-court-told

Which River and which Sea do you think it is referring to?

Hamas rules Gaza. Hamas confirmed recently their commitment to eradicating all Jews, and continuing their terror attacks. Hamas chants 'From the river to the sea" all the time.

A ceasefire is an agreement between both (or all) parties in a conflict. Hamas won't agree to anything and Israel wants its hostages returned home safely if it is to make any concessions.

Why are the protests focussing on Israel's attacks on Gaza and not Hamas returning the hostages, which would facilitate a ceasefire more than anything else? Why the focus on only one side? (don't tell me, we can all see it)

The devastating loss of civilian life is obscene. Humanitarian corridors of safety and a stable supply chain of water, food and medicine are despreately needed. All allies of Israel need to keep up pressure to get this in place.

But there's no ceasefire possible if only one party is called to stop and the other contiunues to call for another genocide of all Jews.

Don't come on here talking sense @KatBurglar

There is obviously never any banners saying to free the hostages, or for Hamas to lay down their arms (do people seriously believe that Israel would continue with their attacks if that happened?!?) and there are certainly never any banners in these protests asking the Arab world to provide sanctity for Palestinian refugees

All we get instead is 'River to the Sea' and 'Free Palestine'. There is, apparently, nothing Hammas could do in any way to prevent further attacks.

It is not Israel who do indiscriminate bombing of civilians, yet here we are.

People who go on these protests will march alongside Hamas terrorist sympathisers, whether they like that statement or not, it is true.

There aren't any humanly reasonable justifications for continually bombing kids. They should stop.

Hamas will not lay down their arms.

So......where is your outrage about that? What do you want Israel to do? Let them come across their border again and indiscriminately murder civilians? There is no question that is what their intention would be.

Do you want to protest about Hamas not laying down their arms and surrendering given what they have done? Or do you believe that they have a right to invade Israel (River to the Sea and all that)?