Page 8 | “Karen” is a misogynist term.

Bleuuuughhh · 2023-11-03T01:34:29+00:00

i just would like to get an idea of how other women feel about this term. It seems deeply unfair there is no equivalent term for badly behaved men. In my eyes, the phase appears to be a new insult to add the huge list women have had add to put up with through the ages. Women being sexually active is now more acceptable so the terms “Jezebel”, “slag” are not used as widely. Similarly there is an aging population “crone” and “witch” aren’t acceptable . Now a woman who complains, or doesn’t tow the party time is called a “Karen”. Has anything really actually changed at all?

MissyB1 · 03/11/2023 12:56

Lavender14 · 03/11/2023 12:49

Do you not think that the issue is in how the term is misused?

My mum is utterly horrific to retail assistants/ servers etc. It goes beyond assertiveness and is rude, condescending and belittling. I used to absolutely cringe watching her interactions at times because having worked in retail myself, I'm very aware that the person working on the end shouldn't have to deal with that attitude. I do genuinely dread the day someone films her and calls her out because she won't understand why it's happening. She's got zero self reflection skills and will see herself as a complete victim even when she's in the wrong.

For me it's not about women who are making a valid complaint, or being reasonable in addressing poor service. It's about women who are being OVERLY entitled/ rude/ snobbish/ aggressive to people they see as beneath them. Or who resort to child like behavior when they don't get their own way. In that context I think it works quite well in trying to promote some accountability. The issue is when some people apply it to women who are being reasonable and who are justified in order to shut them down. That is when I think it becomes misogynistic.

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Men can be rude, entitled and lack self awareness too. Why would you need a specific name to call a woman behaving like that? Your mum’s behaviour is nothing to do with being a middle aged /older lady.

maltravers · 03/11/2023 12:56

Lavender, If you’re behaving horribly as a middle aged person whether as a woman or (shock!!) a man, you deserve to be pulled up on it. But you’re implying white middle aged women bring this on themselves by asserting themselves. Do you apply this rule to young/gay/black/old/trans people or is it just white middle aged women who should be restricted and mind their tone?

IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism · 03/11/2023 12:57

DrinkingMyWaterMindingMyBiz · 03/11/2023 12:28

objecting to the use of a woman’s name to shut up middle aged women of any colour or background, which is misogynistic.

This part I agree with, which is why I said it should be challenged as such in my post at 09.57. But to ignore the history of the term is to ignore the behaviours that white women continue to display. Please don’t do that.

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Fair enough. I believe there is some dispute about whether the misogynistic use of the term actually came first, but I agree that understanding the wider context is important.

stormyslippers · 03/11/2023 12:57

I agree OP.

I've found it's usually used by people who lack critical thinking skills and independence.

IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism · 03/11/2023 12:59

DrinkingMyWaterMindingMyBiz · 03/11/2023 12:34

@MrsHarrisAParis

I’m going to be honest, I am struggling to see how any of your most recent post is relevant to anything I have said. There is a big difference between community support for oppressed women and every day sexism and racism that women face.

As I said, the work you are doing is important and I’m sure you’ve helped hundreds of women in adverse situations that they wouldn’t have been in if it weren’t for patriarchy and greed. But that really has nothing to do with what I have been saying about the every day microaggressions that occur with these “Karen-like” behaviours.

Anyway, I feel I’ve said enough on this thread now, I’m only going to end up going around in circles. If anyone can come up with a new catchy name that won’t upset white women while also calling white women out on this type of racism, good luck to you.

Oh I spoke too soon. Please don’t use the term “Karen-like”. It’s lazy and fucking offensive. Use your words.

MorrisZapp · 03/11/2023 13:04

HipTightOnions · 03/11/2023 12:52

For me it's not about women who are making a valid complaint, or being reasonable in addressing poor service. It's about women who are being OVERLY entitled/ rude/ snobbish/ aggressive to people they see as beneath them.

Don't men do this too? Why don't we have a special name for them?

Men are more aggressive to service staff than women are, numerous studies show this. But mens anger isn't funny to show on social media and nobody is brave enough to film it in the first place.

maltravers · 03/11/2023 13:05

maltravers · 03/11/2023 12:56

Lavender, If you’re behaving horribly as a middle aged person whether as a woman or (shock!!) a man, you deserve to be pulled up on it. But you’re implying white middle aged women bring this on themselves by asserting themselves. Do you apply this rule to young/gay/black/old/trans people or is it just white middle aged women who should be restricted and mind their tone?

And if you do apply the same rule to young/gay/black/old/trans people, is your criticism of their overly assertive behaviour tied in with them being young/gay/black/old/trans and what specific abusive terms to identify each of them should be used?

Sanguinello · 03/11/2023 13:12

It's amazing that in 2023 there are still people who believe women are inferior to men and deserve to be called names to shame them for it.

Sanguinello · 03/11/2023 13:13

MorrisZapp · 03/11/2023 13:04

Men are more aggressive to service staff than women are, numerous studies show this. But mens anger isn't funny to show on social media and nobody is brave enough to film it in the first place.

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Exactly.

Voteva · 03/11/2023 13:20

It is misogynist. It’s a way to tell off and silence a woman for daring to be assertive, for expressing an opinion, for suggesting that she might be important, and it’s always directed at a woman older than her twenties (because many men and young women see no point in women past the age of thirty).

potatoheads · 03/11/2023 15:02

Bleuuuughhh · 03/11/2023 01:40

What is the male equivalent then?

There may not be an exact equivalent of a man's name denoting the particular behaviours 'Karen' is used to describe but there are plenty of things men are called for a variety of reasons.

Tinklyheadtilt · 03/11/2023 15:24

It is more of a racist insult towards white middle class women than being misogynist.

ReturnOfTheRainMac · 03/11/2023 15:26

There is no male equivalent because men are allowed to talk without fear of chastising.

This is a really good explanation of why the definition of Karen has changed.

JSMill · 03/11/2023 16:24

LameBorzoi · 03/11/2023 02:03

Completely agree. It may have started out as a way of calling out racist, entitled behaviour, but now it's used for any older woman who dares express an opinion.

100% this.

newhaircut · 03/11/2023 16:29

MorrisZapp · 03/11/2023 13:04

Men are more aggressive to service staff than women are, numerous studies show this. But mens anger isn't funny to show on social media and nobody is brave enough to film it in the first place.

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Exactly, and there is no "special" name for them. Yes, men have derogatory descriptors but women also have plenty of those too so thats not a valid argument. There is no male name that is associated with this kind of behaviour. Its misogynistic AF

HRTQueen · 03/11/2023 16:32

I do remember a Karen thread and the underhand racism

the lack of self awareness was quite shocking but I know some were sadly not surprised

it’s only on mn that I hear how terribly misogynistic the term is

surferparadise · 03/11/2023 16:38

During my OLD days, I witnessed many men being incredibly rude and entitled with service staff, (far more so than women I have witnessed).

Whats their name? oh thats right. There isnt one. 🙄

MissyB1 · 03/11/2023 18:39

Sanguinello · 03/11/2023 13:12

It's amazing that in 2023 there are still people who believe women are inferior to men and deserve to be called names to shame them for it.

Utterly depressing isn’t it?

Nellodee · 03/11/2023 18:39

Karen, close to when it was originally used. Note the date : 5 years ago

Nellodee · 03/11/2023 18:44

Racist Karen. Note the date: years after the original purely misogynistic reading.

TimeForACider · 03/11/2023 19:49

I loathe this term. Any time I see a poster referring to a ‘Karen’ I immediately stop reading the thread. On Tik Tok/YouTube, I never watch any ‘Karen’ videos. The term seems to be used by people who are a little bit thick.

Sanguinello · 03/11/2023 20:44

TimeForACider · 03/11/2023 19:49

I loathe this term. Any time I see a poster referring to a ‘Karen’ I immediately stop reading the thread. On Tik Tok/YouTube, I never watch any ‘Karen’ videos. The term seems to be used by people who are a little bit thick.

Definitely.

Lndnmummy · 03/11/2023 20:46

MinnieL · 03/11/2023 01:39

I’ve never understood the argument that Karen is a misogynistic term. If a few incels decide to take the piss and use a word differently, does that mean the origin of the word no longer matters?

The origin of the word had nothing to do with ‘keeping women quiet’ or ‘shutting down women’s voices.’ The term Karen is very much used for the right reasons where I am in SW London. It’s only on the internet do I hear, ‘Karen is such a misogynistic term’ but when I ask people for examples, they quote things from a few losers on Reddit

Agreed. Its tiresome

Sanguinello · 03/11/2023 20:50

The one good thing about the term Karen is that it's useful in immediately signalling that the person using it is an idiot and to be avoided.

Lndnmummy · 03/11/2023 20:52

DrinkingMyWaterMindingMyBiz · 03/11/2023 10:18

@NotLactoseFree perfect examples.

A (black) friend of mine had a message in her local WhatsApp group (white, middle class area). The message was people about some “dodgy looking men behaving suspiciously” in the community allotment. The “dodgy looking men” were in fact my friend’s 14YO son and his school friend picking some vegetables that his mum had been growing.

Edit: I should have added that the person sending the message was a white woman, but considering the context of this thread I think that goes without saying. Not sure what her name is, but I wouldn’t have blamed anyone for suggesting it could have been Karen.

Edited

That woman IS a Karen