“Karen” is a misogynist term.

[Bleuuuughhh]

i just would like to get an idea of how other women feel about this term.

It seems deeply unfair there is no equivalent term for badly behaved men. In my eyes, the phase appears to be a new insult to add the huge list women have had add to put up with through the ages.

Women being sexually active is now more acceptable so the terms “Jezebel”, “slag” are not used as widely. Similarly there is an aging population “crone” and “witch” aren’t acceptable . Now a woman who complains, or doesn’t tow the party time is called a “Karen”.

Has anything really actually changed at all?

Google "male equivalent of Karen" or similar and you will see that there is no consensus. Ken...Kevin...Richard...Steve...or is it just male Karen...there are numerous discussions and articles about this with dozens of different suggestions. You yourself previously said it was John, but now you are insisting it is Ken because a BBC piece said so?

There's no consensus, because there is no equivalent term in widespread use. Because the Karen slur is misogynist.

Since the release of the Barbie movie it is simply ridiculous to suggest that Ken is the alternative to Karen.
There is no agreed similar word for a "Karen" in either of the two most frequently used meanings of this name.
Neither meanings need to use an actual woman's name and could just use descriptors of the behavior. This what men have the privilege of.

You'd need to raise your objections with the BBC. Perhaps you can tell them that your 12 year old, as well as TikTok disagree?

It’s called critical thinking.

You might want to try it.

The BBC isn't a truth oracle, although I would place more faith in it than TikTok it isn't free of its own bias and prejudice either.
One named reporter writing a piece doesn't mean that is an disputable truth.
I see no evidence of a consistent male equivalent either in the USA where I live or the UK where I am from. Although they are very different places they have that in common.

Indisputable truth ( I really want the edit button on the phone app)

Have people heard of Karen's Diner?

There are 7 branches of them in the UK, this is their blurb

"Karens is an interactive diner and an absurdly fun experience. At Karens you will be greeted and waited upon by rude waiters and forced to play a variety of stupid games.

You can expect good food, good fun and a dining experience like you've never had before. Let us know if it's your birthday, if your name is Karen and for the love of Karen don't ask to speak to the manager...."

I've never been (and never would obviously), but I'd bet my life that they don't racially abuse their customers. Which is curious...why would an entire business be built around the premise of a Karen being a rude woman, if in actual fact Karen is used to call out racism? Have Karen's Diner got the meaning of Karen wrong?

www.bemorekaren.com/

Maybe ask your 12 year old? Tiktok?

I had totally forgotten about "Karen's diner".
We actually stayed in a very small hotel which had one as its restaurant.
We didn't use it and we were spending time with family mostly but the premise was terrible service and the being quite loudly abused.
Actually so loudly that we were undecided if we would use the hotel again, on our first stay the hotel had a standard restaurant that was much quieter.
I will say it was very popular.
However it isn't legal to racially abuse people so I can't imagine staff were doing that.

@DoktorPeppa
Have Karen's Diner got the meaning of Karen wrong?

Yes, they have. I’ve already mentioned that on this thread.

But as dreadful a business concept as it is, it's clearly very successful with 7 branches in the UK and others internationally. All the people involved in setting it up, the people who work in them, the people who go to them, the people who like the videos...they all understand "Karen" to mean rude and entitled, not racist.

If pretty much everybody understands a word to mean a particular thing, then that's what it means. Saying that everybody is wrong doesn't make any sense.

I would definitely avoid a hotel with one as its restaurant! Horrid concept.

My 12yo understands what a rhetorical question is...

@DoktorPeppa
If pretty much everybody understands a word to mean a particular thing, then that's what it means. Saying that everybody is wrong doesn't make any sense.

I don’t know if you haven’t read/understood my posts, are confusing me with somebody else on the thread or it’s simply a case of wilful ignorance, but my point has never been that “Karen” isn’t used as a misogynistic term. All I have asked white women to do is to know and understand the origins of the term, and understand that if a black person is calling them a Karen, it’s probably because they’ve been using their white privilege as a weapon, knowingly or not. The fact that I have needed to state this so many times in so many different ways, have been prodded and poked for “evidence” and “elaborations” which have consequently been ignored are perfect examples of this.

No wilful ignorance on my part. You said Karen's Diner have the meaning wrong. I said, no they don't. They are using the word the way everybody does.

The jury is out on the origins of the term. Another poster seems to have done extensive research and found that its original usage online was nothing to do with racism. So I'm not going to automatically accept that the origins weren't misogynist just because you tell me to.

Nobody's ever called me a Karen but if they did, I wouldn't care what colour they are - I'd know it's a misogynist slur because I'm a middle aged woman who isn't afraid to speak up for herself.

@Lndnmummy your white saviour attitude is atrocious. Describing a Black woman as ‘eloquent’ tells me all I need to know. Shocking.

Seems to be more am American label really. I've only just ever seen very young men use it in Britain and always towards women in their 50s or above it seems.

Not even young men, young teens really. Anyone over the age of 13 using this term is just embarrassing!

@DoktorPeppa

Another poster seems to have done extensive research and found that its original usage online was nothing to do with racism. So I'm not going to automatically accept that the origins weren't misogynist just because you tell me to.

The “extensive research” that other poster had done was dated as far back as 2018, yet since I followed up with my evidence from 2014 she has not responded nor returned.

It’s funny how a white woman’s limited efforts are “extensive research” but a rebuttal with screenshots from a black woman are just “me telling you to believe me”.

You see this? This is the exact type of behaviour we are talking about when we say white women use thinly veiled racism to paint themselves as victims. The way you have just exemplified everything I have been talking about on this thread is embarrassing. Please don’t ever claim to be any sort of “intersectional feminist” because it’s quite clear your “feminism” stands for white women and white women only. Everything else I have posted about white women using their privilege as weapons on this thread has been either hypothetical or relating to a known case outside of this thread. This example right here is directly aimed at you.

I agree. I don't like it, I agree it's misogynistic but would most likely laugh out loud if I were called a karen. I can't take it seriously at all.

Karen's diner also employ male "Karen's" so either they've got it right and it's not misogynistic or they've got it wrong and other posters points still stand.

Oh my god. Read my post again. I said the jury is out on the origins of the term. I don't know what the origins are because I haven't conducted that research myself. It's clearly up for debate and all I said was I'm not going to automatically accept something just because you say that white women have to.

You say that I am using thinly veiled racism to paint myself as a victim...a victim of what exactly? I haven't got a clue what you're talking about. Ditto me using privilege as a weapon. What weapon what now?

@DoktorPeppa If you don’t understand it by now, you likely never will.

I just hope that there will be some white women reading this thread who did not initially understand the points being made about racial factors that, having seen it play out in real time via your posts, can now see for themselves.

These conversations are exhausting and their very existence is disappointing; a stark reminder of how little black women’s voices are valued in any given space. But these conversations still hold value because someone, somewhere, someday will be held to account for their words and actions. Simply labelling them as “Karens” isn’t enough.

A very revealing slip of the tongue there @Lndnmummy

Are they real men that are employed there or the ones who identify as ladies?