“Karen” is a misogynist term.

[Bleuuuughhh]

i just would like to get an idea of how other women feel about this term.

It seems deeply unfair there is no equivalent term for badly behaved men. In my eyes, the phase appears to be a new insult to add the huge list women have had add to put up with through the ages.

Women being sexually active is now more acceptable so the terms “Jezebel”, “slag” are not used as widely. Similarly there is an aging population “crone” and “witch” aren’t acceptable . Now a woman who complains, or doesn’t tow the party time is called a “Karen”.

Has anything really actually changed at all?

@InvisibleDuck " i still take issue with the idea of tears as a weapon. If I cry, as an adult woman, it's because I feel trapped in a situation and completely powerless. It's not deliberate and it's not something I want to happen."

That's you, and I understand that situations may arise where men are threatening or intimidating, intentionally or not that may lead a woman to genuine tears.

But we know historically that there are women who will use tears in order to incite hated, to avoid accountability, to try and appear more reliable and as the victim particularly in exchanges involving people of colour. Just because you personally wouldn't do this, sadly doesn't mean that other women don't.

A senior manager at a work Christmas party was drunk and kept trying to get my husband to go back to her hotel, she kept trying to touch him and saying she wanted to sleep with a black man. My husband firmly said he was not interested did she want him to call her a taxi as she was quite drunk. When it was clear he was rejecting her she started to cry and security was called on my husband. Incidents like this have happened to him before. This is weaponising tears.

!!!!

You’ve worded things much more better than I have so thank you for that

Why are women turning on each other. Fucking hell.

Racism must be called out and fought.
Sexism must be called out and fought.

‘Karen’ as an insult should be binned and called out for the misogynistic term that it currently is. If someone is being racist, call that out: if they are sexiest, call it out. Don’t confuse the issue with unnecessary words.

I am not called Karen but how must people who are feel about having their name used in this way?

That’s awful, I’m so sorry that happened to him. Incidents like this happen more than some people will ever know

"It's not just racism-it's women's racism."

No-one in my family would defend the use of the word Karen. They also wouldn't blame women for men's violence.
And they use the word 'racism' to call out racism because it carries much more protection in law than a misogynistic slur. But then they also realise that the institutional racism that means they have the worst health outcomes, are more likely to be imprisoned, and are discriminated against in law - all have been implemented and kept in place by men. They realise we live in a patriarchy and that system of male power needs to be dismantled.

I'm a Karen and I have zero fucks to give about the abuse of the name my mother lovingly chose for me 😁 I'm on every Karen thread so with apologies to those who have heard it ad nauseam, I'm not offended because I think Karens are nice. Let's face it, some of us are probably right arseholes.

I'm offended because when they say Karen, they mean Karen, Angela, Sharon, Debbie, Claire, Catherine, Julie, Tracy, and all the other girls I was at school with who are now in their fifties and no longer deemed of value. They mean older women.

They mean bitch.

I had exactly this experience. I contributed to a post about irresponsible parking on our online village group and had a slew of comments calling me a typical 'Karen' (it doesn't help that that is my actual name). Some of the remarks were really horrible with people jumping on the bandwagon - DH was furious - and I ended up asking one of the administrators to take my post down as it became upsetting.

Those of you who are talking about words like this creating “divisions in the feminist struggle” must not be aware that feminism has already been divided as far back as the concept of “race” can go.

Black feminists have been critiquing the mainstream white-centred feminism for decades. Expecting us to all be unified under the umbrella of feminism is asking black women to put our racial struggles aside of our feminist struggles. No. We fight both simultaneously and will not be joining the white women’s battle against patriarchy until white feminism truly acknowledges the role it has played in upholding systemic racism and patriarchy.

Yes. I would love all women to be united on fighting sexism. But I'd also like all people who are anti-racism to have the same views (my views, natch ) . It's not practical. We have to aim to work all broadly in the same direction, accepting that there are different priorities, issues and challenges along the way.

But I think this idea that everyone has to agree with everything is pervasive, and very damaging. The way it plays out in the political arena is that people melt down if the political party they want to support isn't 100% on the same page as them 100% of the time. That's just not possible. Me and DH are about as aligned politically and ethically as it's possible to be, but there are STILL things we see slightly different. Expecting millions of people to all agree all of the time on all of the issues of the day?! crazy.

The thing is 'most of us' don't just talk about it. We've been working to change and improve women's lives for decades. All women's lives - in community groups; national groups; international coalitions; with small women-led groups across the world. We've been working in groups with every race of women. We've been uplifting each other voices and centring each other's struggles. That's why we're bemused by the 'feminists' on social media who spend more time telling women to put up with sexist insults, to shut up rather than complain because if they complain they're a 'Karen' and then blaming women for male violence. Also even those coming to feminism from a theoretical pov can recognise structural oppression; the architects of structural oppression and know that other women are not their enemy. If they're coming to it from a socialist perspective then they recognise women are oppressed because of their sex class. No-one is saying all women's struggles are the same. But women have managed to work together for centuries to create alternative support networks, funding networks, campaign networks. And pulling down other women only ever benefits men.

and pulling down other women only ever benefits men
this is true and worth remembering.

Here’s a real life example for you then. My boys (white) when they were about 13 sniggering about some “Karen” (ie a white middle aged woman) who ticked them off for throwing stones in the river. I have no idea whether her ticking off was in order or not, but my boys received a homily from me on - why was it acceptable to denigrate someone on the basis of their age, sex and race? They wouldn’t denigrate someone in the basis they were not white. They wouldn’t denigrate an old person. But they had received the message from society that white middle aged women were fair game. They are years older now and I have not heard them use that term again.

100% agree. It’s just a term to shame and silence women, same as 20 years ago any woman complaining about sexism would be derided and accused of probably being ugly and unfuckable.

Yes, I see it as misogynistic in some contexts. The way it's now bandied about implies that any middle aged woman expressing a strong opinion is on a par with those racist women the term was originally based on.

@MrsHarrisAParis

they complain they're a 'Karen' and then blaming women for male violence. Also even those coming to feminism from a theoretical pov can recognise structural oppression; the architects of structural oppression and know that other women are not their enemy.

Did you read any of my other posts upthread? If not, please do because I’ve explained why both of your points I’ve quoted aren’t true in practice.

I appreciate the work you’re trying to do in bringing women together, but I’m sure calling black women “idiots defending men” when we point out the unique type of racism that comes from white women really isn’t the hill I’m sure you want to die on.

No, it’s not “Karenism”.

It’s totally unacceptable racist behaviour and needs to be called out as such.

Why do you need to co-opt a name that’s common amongst middle aged women as some kind of bizarre euphemism for horrible racist behaviour? Surely calling it what it is is more powerful?

Kevin.

As a female it doesn't bother me. I just call the male version ''Normans'' as it's such a boring name!

Cringing myself inside out for anyone claiming that the Karen meme has a male equivalent.

I'm offended because when they say Karen, they mean Karen, Angela, Sharon, Debbie, Claire, Catherine, Julie, Tracy, and all the other girls I was at school with who are now in their fifties and no longer deemed of value. They mean older women.

Yes, this exactly. It's so easy to dismiss us all with one word.

That’s absolutely disgusting and shameful behaviour with a generous side helping of racism. I hope Security gave her short shrift and apologised to your husband.

I still don’t see why appalling behaviour like that needs to be called “being a Karen”.

@IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism

Of course they didn't. Never in a million years would a working class black man be believed over a middle class white woman. He had an awful time and left with everyone staring at him. He feels he can never defend himself as he gets accused of being aggressive because he's a 6ft 4 black man.

I'm not really referring to the use of the word Karen I was speaking to the point around women weaponising tears against black men.