“Karen” is a misogynist term.

[Bleuuuughhh]

i just would like to get an idea of how other women feel about this term.

It seems deeply unfair there is no equivalent term for badly behaved men. In my eyes, the phase appears to be a new insult to add the huge list women have had add to put up with through the ages.

Women being sexually active is now more acceptable so the terms “Jezebel”, “slag” are not used as widely. Similarly there is an aging population “crone” and “witch” aren’t acceptable . Now a woman who complains, or doesn’t tow the party time is called a “Karen”.

Has anything really actually changed at all?

Gammon...?

I'm.not sure it's a misogynistic term as plenty of women use it. And it does accurately the type of woman. We all have all encountered it.

Yes it's a rude derogatory term. But it's not misogynistic

Oh, that's already been pointed out! Never mind!

Was it Emmett Till’s actions that got him killed? Did the Scottsboro Boys arrest themselves? Did Christopher Cooper call the police on himself? Or were these all examples, historical and modern, of white women playing the victim to watch black men fall?

These “Karens” may not have been responsible for men’s actions but they sure as hell are responsible for their own.

I still take issue with the idea of tears as a weapon. If I cry, as an adult woman, it's because I feel trapped in a situation and completely powerless. It's not deliberate and it's not something I want to happen. The idea of someone claiming they were a 'weapon' because the man I felt threatened by was black is really disturbing to me (hypothetical - I haven't been in this particular situation. I have cried because I was afraid of white men's behavior and I can imagine that in the same situation but with men of another race I'd react similarly.)

I think there's an important distinction to be made here though. The "white woman's tears" that are referenced in the context of Karen, are not tears because a white woman feels threatened by a black man in the same situation where a white man would be as scary. eg, it's not a white woman out at night, with a man (black or white) following her and making inappropriate sexual comments or a white woman trying to go into a shop but being blocked by a man, black or white. The examples of white women's tears being weaponised are ones where a white woman wants something, the black man says no, and she then cries. eg, black man reaches for last box of eggs, white woman has a meltdown because he "snatched them" from her. Or black man is in a place he has every right to be but a white woman decides that she has MORE right to be in that place.

Another possible example I imagine is when a white woman does or says something that is racist and gets called on it and then cries about it. The problem with that one of course is that a white man who is casually racist is less likely to be called out - I know I am still annoyed with myself for seeing a white man being patronising and clearly racist to someone but I didn't say anything because quite frankly, he was a large white man and I didn't feel safe to do so. I might have felt differently if he'd been a woman so I can easily see that white women being casually racist are more likely to be called out but then also more likely to turn it against the person calling them out with "white women's tears"

I have another, real life from this week example:

I am constantly surprised on our Facebook local group how often random people - almost always white women - post about "suspicious" men. And how often those suspicious men are black (with a strong showing from generic "Eastern European men").

They see a black man somewhere they decide he should not be, and immediately he is a threat. Cue endless comments on those posts saying, "you should have called the police right there and then hun" and "it's good you're warning people". Last night, it was a woman who, wait for it.... was warned about a black man who was in a park, not doing anything, at 7pm.....

THAT is the kind of situation where white women are absolutely weaponising their racism.

Surely explaining to someone that they are being racist or entitled will allow them to learn more than telling them to “shut up Karen”?

What planet are you living on?

@NotLactoseFree perfect examples.

A (black) friend of mine had a message in her local WhatsApp group (white, middle class area). The message was people about some “dodgy looking men behaving suspiciously” in the community allotment. The “dodgy looking men” were in fact my friend’s 14YO son and his school friend picking some vegetables that his mum had been growing.

Edit: I should have added that the person sending the message was a white woman, but considering the context of this thread I think that goes without saying. Not sure what her name is, but I wouldn’t have blamed anyone for suggesting it could have been Karen.

@DrinkingMyWaterMindingMyBiz @NotLactoseFree

I don't have time to reply at length just now but I want to thank you both for your thoughtful replies to me - you're making me reconsider my position (not on tears=weapons, if I'm honest, but certainly on different ways in which racism can manifest)

Britain is not America and the extent of racism over there - segregation within living memory ffs - sometimes requires a reminder.

Ha ha ha. If you say so

ARGH. It's so ridiculous.

I comment fairly often when I see these posts - especially if no one else has yet (if others have, I tend to like/love their posts) but the abuse and almost amusingly patronising responses I've received are quite something.

It's very sad. DS has a couple of black and mixed race friends and he says it is a little bit scary how different they are treated in a group when one of them are with them vs when it's just a bunch of white boys.

Dick

I agree that Gammon = Karen is a really good equivalent, in UK terms.

It's sad that the actual name Karen was adopted for use - why?

Judging by the thousands of youtube vids, there really is a demographic of racist hateful women of a certain age (in the USA where it started) who become hysterical because they saw a brown skin person delivering their mail. There's enough videos of them all doing the same thing to see that they've been similarly affected and it's a form of group think - and they really do all have the haircut which is odd and sort of funny.

What they were doing is very serious as we know that young black men can get shot dead in these circumstances. It did need calling out and challenging.

Now it's been globally filtered down into literally any female over the age of 35 who needs to dispute something or complain to the manager, it's not really the same thing at all. It's a terrible sexist misogynist hateful ideology IMO and what a shame for everyone with the name, which is beautiful. It will pass.

Nope. Claiming it originated in anti-racist activism is flat out misinformation. It did not. It was co-opted for that use after it had been in use for many years as a misogynistic term. It was created on Reddit by (mostly) white men primarily to attack white women (they had other terms for non-white women, which only took off in certain circles). As it spread it evolved to become more specifically about a caricature of a specific kind of woman who berated service staff and asked to speak to the manager and then evolved further in various different directions, including being appropriated by online American anti-racist activists. It never originated there and that was never the widespread understanding or usage of it outside of specific circles much later.

That doesn't stop certain people gleefully shutting down and derailing discussions about the sexism of the term with misinformation about its origin every single time though. Initially I had some sympathy, especially because a lot of terms that spread into the mainstream had their unacknowledged origins in black American culture, but I no longer have that patience since people should know better now. At this point I assume people are aware they're lying and derailing and just don't care.

White women have historically lied in order to incite hate crime. That's not new information. Women are not responsible for men's action. They are however responsible for their own racist behaviour.

😕

God this! yes this!!

Thank you!

Yes. I can’t believe people are still denying that it’s used everywhere all the time about any woman complaining. It doesn’t matter what the origin is, that’s simply not how it’s used now. Five minutes on literally any social media will show you.

Like “queer” which is a slur to me, but clearly is now commonly used and not intended pejoratively. I might not like it personally but I have to get used to the fact that the use of the word has changed.

I also agree that pointing out when someone is being racist and why is more helpful all round than making up a caricature of a ‘Karen’.

Thank you again. People don’t have a clue

Women are as racist as any other demographic. There's a good word to describe racist behaviour: racism.

After all, that's the word we use to describe men who beat, shoot, lynch and kill black people. Nobody can misunderstand it or query it's roots.

Racism.

to be fair, MN also recognises it as such and if it is addressed to a poster you can report it and have the post removed

Women also use misogynist terms like home wrecker, tart, hag and witch. Just because women use a word doesn't mean it can't be misogynist.

Yy and men cannot believe their luck that there are so many useful idiots willing to defend their abuse and helping them to kick away any advances women have made.
The funny thing is women who are actually activists can see this divide and conquer bullshit coming from a mile away.
Men must be rubbing their hands with glee that somehow social media has made it easy to pretend that other women actually welcome the extension of misogynistic terms.