“Karen” is a misogynist term.

[Bleuuuughhh]

i just would like to get an idea of how other women feel about this term.

It seems deeply unfair there is no equivalent term for badly behaved men. In my eyes, the phase appears to be a new insult to add the huge list women have had add to put up with through the ages.

Women being sexually active is now more acceptable so the terms “Jezebel”, “slag” are not used as widely. Similarly there is an aging population “crone” and “witch” aren’t acceptable . Now a woman who complains, or doesn’t tow the party time is called a “Karen”.

Has anything really actually changed at all?

And I’m very sorry about it, but it has nothing to do with me not taking any shit from anyone.

I’m not paying for the sins of anyone’s father.

Are black women allowed to be assertive? Presumably that’s not a risk to black children, indeed, may even be standing up for them.

Is it sexist to call a black woman a Karen if she is being assertive?

I absolutely don't blame any mother for being hyper aware of racism that her dc receives.

But I do struggle with the link between a middle aged woman calling out poor service and someone's children experiencing racism.

I'm not understanding how calling people "Karen's" helps in either situation either. Particularly as "being a Karen" seems to mean totally different things to different people.

Allowing middle aged women to be assertive and clearly calling out racism for what it is seems a sensible way forward. Without misusing a woman's name in either scenario.

I think we all know that black women being assertive aren't called "Karen's".

They're called aggressive which is a whole other problem in itself.

If calling a black women “aggressive” when she’s being assertive is wrong (which I agree, it is!) why is it ok to call a white woman a “Karen” in the same circumstances?

Gammons ? I think

I agree children should be taught how to raise complaints and report poor service etc. But there is a way to do it which is partly what I think a lot of people on this thread seem to be (willfully?) missing.

A "karen" doesn't do these things reasonably, and isn't satisfied with a fair and reasonable solution as a response. They want to use their perceived position of power as a passing customer to bully, belittle and verbally abuse people who are offering them a service (which they see as making that person beneath them). A "Karen" when asked to leave the shop or when the police are called due to the level of abuse she's imparting on staff just doing their jobs, then cries and attempts to manipulate the situation to make herself out to be the victim to avoid taking responsibility for the abuse she's just imparted on another person she thought would just take it. Similar would happen after she launches a thinly veiled racist attack on someone, knowing that she's concealed it well enough that she can't be accused of outright racism. It's applied to someone highly manipulative, not just because she's middle aged or because she's being assertive.

That's not just a woman being assertive and standing up for herself. "Karen" is applied to a specific group of behaviours. Obviously not every middle aged woman is going to think or treat people that way, but there absolutely are a percentage that do. And I'd gently suggest, that while I understand many are calling out younger women for using the term as misogynistic, is it not equally misogynistic for older women to attempt to bully younger women because of their job, or bully women of color because they are white. How can posters be calling one out but not the other.

Obviously some people will misuse the term and apply it to situations where its not appropriate just as they do everything else, but that doesn't undo the meaning of the term and why its come about.

I think “Gammons” means middle aged to old right wingers, who are white, it’s an insult but not one that suggests the person insulted is being or has been racist, if that is what you are suggesting. More that you are insulting their age, (white) race and politics.

@Lavender14 what you're describing are extreme examples and women are routinely called Karens for far less

Somebody barges into you, doesn't apologise and you say watch where you're going? You're a Karen.

Receiving poor service on the phone and ask to speak to their supervisor? You're a Karen.

Wrote a letter of complaint? You're a Karen.

Your child is being bullied and you raise it with the school? You're a Karen.

You are a Karen for existing. If you don't think that's the case, just take a look on social media...read the comments on tiktoks...read the comments on local news FB pages...see how the word is used.

Like I said, some people will misuse the term for their own agenda.

But I don't think that someone's misuse of the term is what makes that term incorrect. It makes the user incorrect.

Lavender, you may think people are using the term “Karen” wrongly and shouldn’t, but the fact is, that IS how the term is used.

When the vast majority of people use a word in a certain way, are they using it incorrectly though?

Language evolves and if Karen did originally mean a racist woman, it certainly doesn't anymore.

The vast majority use the term to shut down women who dare to express an opinion. Which brings us full circle - it's a misogynistic and ageist insult

I'm not sure why any child should be scared of that

This thread is a great example of why terms like 'Karen' exist and will continue to exist. I will defend any black or brown woman's right to use it, in the right context. I don't use it myself, I find another word much more fitting.

Terms like Karen exist because we live in a profoundly sexist society.
People can use any words they like but women buying into this is depressing.
Karen is a real name for real women.
If you mean racist use that word, we manage this for men.

No, that term will stay firmly attached to a certain type of woman that thinks hiding behind misogyny is possible.

You say that Karen is a term for calling out underhanded racism. I’ve provided dated evidence that this is not, in fact, the original usage. Others have provided lots of evidence that it’s also not the main current usage.

You say that this thread is a great example of why the term is needed. You are saying that the people arguing with you in this thread are being racist in an underhand manner.

As I understand it, you are black and London mummy is white.

Let me be absolutely clear. No one is disagreeing with you because you are black. No one is condoning racism.

People are arguing with you because you fail to acknowledge the sexist past and present of the term Karen.

London mummy and yourself have been absolutely ridiculous on this thread, telling white women they cannot raise complaints about poor SEN provision because it puts black children at risk, then accusing women on this thread of having no empathy.

You accuse people of hiding racism behind misogyny when the reverse is precisely what you are doing. You haven’t made a single coherent argument in the entire thread that justifies the use of a name possessed by thousands of real living, breathing, innocent women.

As I said earlier. Women are allowed to call out sexism. Black people are allowed to call out racism. There is no need for anyone to use racist or sexist slurs whilst doing so.

You complain about a lack of empathy. Try showing a little.

I'm don't get why it's so impossible to acknowledge that more than one thing is true.

1. A "Karen" may be used to describe a specific type of white woman being racist. There are better words..why not just say racist?
2. A "Karen" may be someone who is in fact be racist but when called out sats it is her age and sex being challenged. Again, let's call her behaviour racist rather than "Karen".
3. A "Karen" may be a certain of snooty "entitled" woman who belittles staff etc who they feel are less than they are, regardless of race. Let's call them snooty and entitled.
4. "Karen" is commonly used in the UK to belittle and shut down women over 25 who say anything other than "oh ok then" Let's call them assertive, confident, capable.
5. Karen is a name, popular 50 years ago. Let's call them Karen.

@Nellodee the “evidence” you have provided proves nothing. As I said, mainstream media may have picked up in the term’s correct usage in 2020, after the rise in popularity for the incorrect usage (I think the post you shared said 2018?), however black people have been using it long before either of those. I can’t be arsed to trawl through ‘black Twitter’ to find posts from 2014 showing the term being used amongst black people to describe racist white women, but I can tell you for sure it was. It was never intended to be used by white people, but as most things do on ‘black twitter’, it was picked up by things like BuzzFeed and meme-ified.

It actually went alongside the term “Becky” (think back to Beyoncé’s “Becky with the good hair”. 2015 or 2016). That word was about long before Beyonce made it mainstream and that word didn’t pick up from the outside as much as Karen (which is a good thing, as neither were made for white people’s use in the first place).

In their original senses:
Karen = (usually older) white woman weaponising her privilege against black people.
Becky = (usually younger) white woman who sexualises black men and treats black women like shit. (E.g. a 21YO blonde girl posting a side view pic online to show her bum with the caption “black girls could never”). Also weaponises her white tears.

Ageism probably is the reason “Karen” picked up and not “Becky”. That doesn’t take away the real reason black people were (and continue to) use the term in the first place.

Maybe if you’re called a Karen in the future, see who’s doing the calling. If it’s a white person, they’re being ageist and sexist (and probably unknowingly being a part of the issue with cultural appropriation). If it’s not, ask yourself if you were being a (true) Karen or not.

@DrinkingMyWaterMindingMyBiz see that last bit is the bit I really take issue with "ask yourself if you are being a Karen" ..by which I think you mean the "snooty and entitled" one from my previous post. If it was rarely used, or people actually used the word entitled rather than ambiguous slur, it might be reasonable, but no, on the rare occasions I find it necessary to "call the manager" or equivalent, I do it calmly, politely, in line with any policies and could still get called a Karen. As I said, teens especially do this (I teach them). Women should not have to double Check themselves before every utterance for fear of backlash.

@BibbleandSqwauk I wrote “(true) Karen” in the post. The post describes what a “(true) Karen” is.

Well don't be shy

What word do you use to describe an assertive white woman

So my evidence is crap because you have secret evidence you can’t be arsed to post going back to 2018 (I posted a sexist meme from 2018, so even that doesn’t predate the sexist usage). This is another example of your weak arguments. You say I should accept it was used as a racist term in 2018 despite showing no evidence, whilst failing to recognise the sexist meaning at the same time, despite being shown evidence.

I’ve actually acknowledged it being used against white women in 2018 - are you aware that it was first used this way in a Saturday night sketch where Karen was being racially ignorant because she committed the crime of bringing potato salad to a barbecue? THAT’S the “racist” incident that coined racist Karen. The Amy Cooper incident that is used to justify it did not happen until 2020.

No, of course you’re not aware of its origins, because you refuse to look at any evidence that does not agree with your pre-existing view point.

The first sexist usage, by the way, was in 2016, where a Nintendo advert showed a female gamer called Karen being “annoying”.