“Karen” is a misogynist term.

[Bleuuuughhh]

i just would like to get an idea of how other women feel about this term.

It seems deeply unfair there is no equivalent term for badly behaved men. In my eyes, the phase appears to be a new insult to add the huge list women have had add to put up with through the ages.

Women being sexually active is now more acceptable so the terms “Jezebel”, “slag” are not used as widely. Similarly there is an aging population “crone” and “witch” aren’t acceptable . Now a woman who complains, or doesn’t tow the party time is called a “Karen”.

Has anything really actually changed at all?

We, and our children have different lived experiences. I am far more worried about the impact real life Karen's have on my son. They are his teachers, parents of his peers etc. As a mother of non white children, it is the BEHAVIOUR of Karen's that keep me up at night. Not the term itself.

I appreciate that is not the experience your children face. I would sleep alot easier at night, if all I had to worry about was a word I didn't agree with.

smh

Is it just the impact of women you worry about? Don't you worry about the impact of racist men too? And if so, what word/words do you use to describe those men?

Of course I do. As I said earlier in this thread. We call them John.

Thanks @Lndnmummy, right back at you. Nice to see you again, I hope you and yours are all well. Its the same old rubbish trotted out as truth I see.

If you decide that you’re going to call racist white women “stupid whores” then your intention may be calling out racism, but don’t try to tell us that the phrase “stupid whores” isn’t sexist. Well, you can tell us it isn’t, but no-ones buying it. Racism existing does not necessitate anyone calling women stupid whores. Telling people not to call women stupid whores does not mean condoning racism.

Same goes with Karen, except, not only is it sexist, but it’s really unfair on a whole group of women who are actually called Karen. We’ve clearly evidenced Karen being sexist, over and over. Being a target of racism does not justify being sexist.

It's not arrogance, its experience. I didn't read the whole thread because I didn't need to. I read enough to see that nothing has changed. Discussions on Mumsnet have form that any Black/ Brown/Ethnic minority person or ally can spot from 100 yards away, on a dark night. I have been on this site for over 20 years and if anything the number of emboldened problematic white women has increased rather than decreased. Their voices drown out the decent white and ethnic women. YOUR arrogance does not make you right, it just makes you part of the problem.

@Lndnmummy you said your son calls you it if you exhibit "white privilege". Is it white privilege to complain about genuinely poor service or shoddy quality of something? Of substandard or inadequate SEN support or supervision at school? Or poor manners? Just random examples but to me those things have absolutely nothing to do with white privilege..just living life. Or does "white privilege" mean that any white person should always be counting their blessings and appreciate how advantaged they are and therefore never protest or complain about anything?

Apologies if I am misunderstanding but I really don't get why your son would think you having an assertive position is white privilege.

Are you accusing Black women of calling white women stupid whores?

Thank you for proving my point.

You are happy to state again that you have not read the thread, because you "didn't need to", yet you are happy to tell everybody you are right, because you think you are.

If that's not arrogance, I don't know what is.

Don’t purposefully misread my post. I’m sure you’ve come across an analogy before. I chose a term that was obviously already sexist - just like Karen is.

In those examples you mention, yes I do think my son, as a black boy, would see and feel a different dynamic. than the white woman would. You might think her behaviour is assertive or whatever. For my son, that behaviour from a white woman would make him feel scared. Threatened. He would know, intuitively, that all it takes is for said woman/girl to cry/be upset and he could be in danger. He has experience of this and so he can identify with his peers feeling the same way.

So I guess, that yes I am very careful about complaining for service etc. I am always extremely polite. And I don't make a habit of complaining. Or being a 'Karen'.

What many are forgetting on this thread, is that this behaviour, from middle class white women put black and brown children in particular, in danger.

Again, that is not your experience, or your children's.

Go onto social media, OP, and you see the term constantly used to slap down middle aged women who dare to express an opinion

Misogyny and ageism all wrapped up into one

Lndnmummy, are you now saying that white women put black males in danger, not just through using whites women’s tears against them, but merely by being assertive? And we must be not just polite, but EXTREMELY polite and avoid complaining to prevent black children from feeling threatened? Are we allowed to be assertive when there are no black children around?

@NeedWineNow I’m sorry that you had that experience, it sounds really upsetting. It’s as though the nasty use of the name seen as an allowance for a pile on - even worse as it’s your actual name too. I’ve seen very similar incidents on our community groups. People can be awful.

I’m going to walk away from this thread. I hate sexism, I hate people using Karen as a pejorative, but I don’t want to spend Saturday evening arguing with someone who thinks I’m being racially ignorant.

For the record, I think most women, black and white alike, could do with being more assertive, not less.

Yes, I am saying that. 100%

As for the 'are we allowed to be assertive', I am pretty sure that your 'assertiveness' isn't something that you ask permission for.

Do I hope that my black children are nowhere near you when you 'assert yourself'?

You bet.

Oh sorry, forgive me if I’ve not read what you’ve said about white women and rapists.
Because apparently it’s not necessary to read a thread in order to give your opinion on it.

What was it again?

white women (not all) and rapists... At times there is not a lot separate them.

Could you elaborate???

@Lndnmummy but why on earth would your child think that a random woman asking for appropriate service or whatever have the slightest thing to do with him?? Are you honestly saying that no white woman should ever speak up for themselves in any context whatever because a black child who isn't even present would feel threatened? And that by doing so the white woman is in fact being racist? If that is actually what you're saying then I'm afraid I massively disagree.

My oldest friend from school is called Karen. I suspect that she's been through more in her lifetime than any of you could even begin to comprehend.

What on earth. You genuinely think that a woman asking to speak to the manager or whatever somehow puts your child in danger? How exactly?

I can't even begin to imagine the strange dynamic in your home where you are teaching your kids this rubbish and letting them call you a Karen...must be utterly exhausting for you just having the audacity to exist

Think the thread has jumped the shark at this point. Great to hear that men are no longer a threat or racist at all though, good work on that one.

Yep, men aren't a threat! I mean whoever heard of male police officers killing or raping people. Ridiculous.

The real threat in life are middle aged white women asserting themselves and we should all be terrified of them.

what nonsense no one is saying men are not a threat at all and you know that

what has been said and you are not wanting to take that on board is that usage of Karen is used by many to call out a certain type of racist behaviour from women

now you can take that on board and sit back and think how it must feel to have to deal with that and worry about your children dealing with that (we don’t live in a society where the white woman’s voice particularly middle class whatever age isn’t more powerful than a young black or Asian man voice) let’s not pretend we do